From the Hockey Rink to the Ultimate Writer with Roderick Wilson
In this episode, Dean Jeremy Counseller sits down with 2L Roderick Wilson, who spent eight years building a career before choosing law school. He shares what pulled him back to the classroom, how coaching high school hockey in Texas helped him find meaning, and why real-world experience changes how you see the law.
Roderick also breaks down his winning brief in Baylor Law’s Ultimate Writer competition, including the mindset and habits that set his writing apart. The conversation turns to civil rights history after a powerful trip to the Fred D. Gray Institute for Human & Civil Rights National Symposium, sponsored by Baylor Missions, Service & Public Life, and what it means for lawyers today who feel called to serve.
Sharp insights. Honest reflections. A reminder that the path is not always straight, but it can still lead exactly where you need to go.
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TRANSCRIPT
Jeremy
Welcome to another edition of Counseller’s Corner. I'm Jeremy Counseller, Dean of Baylor Law School. And today my guest is Roderick Wilson, second-year law student here at Baylor Law School. Roderick, how are you doing?
Roderick
I'm doing good. Thanks for having me.
Jeremy
Good. Well, you're very welcome. We're happy to have you here. So, you have what I think you have described as something of a nontraditional path to law school.
So, tell me about that journey.
Roderick
Yeah. I started in college, and took a little bit of a break after my first year. Just wasn't really sure about education, whether that was for me. Moved to Texas, got involved in sales that led to health care billing and operations. And so, I had a, a relatively decent professional career, without a degree and…
Jeremy
Without an undergraduate degree?
Roderick
Without an undergraduate degree. Yeah. And so, I kind of found in that I was looking for more meaning and, like, more connection to using my skills in a positive way. And so that led me back to community college classes that led me to actually going back to undergrad when Covid hit. And, yeah, it's been a, a fun ride with that.
Jeremy
So how long did you have that other what you, what you called a pretty decent career? How long did you do that?
Roderick
About eight years.
Jeremy
Wow.
Roderick
So, yeah. Yeah, I was, I was probably 25, 26 and, started to really kind of feel a disconnect there and was, you know, looking for ways to, I guess, kind of connect with the community and find a way that I would be able to, kind of use the skills I developed in a positive way.
You know, I felt like I really found a lot of meaning in teaching. So, whether that was training new employees, or whether that was like working with a new client and kind of teaching them what was about software. And so, in that I started coaching high school hockey of all things in, in Texas. And I found that being connected to kids and being able to kind of work with that was really helpful.
Jeremy
And how do you find a place to practice hockey in Texas? Are there are enough rinks and…?
Roderick
Yeah. There's a lot. There's a really strong community of people in Austin that are kind of transplants. And so, there's like four rinks in Austin right now.
And at the time, one of the, the head coaches backed out because he was moving to Boston. And so, the Vandergriff High School team was kind of like, we need a coach. And I was like, well, I played for a while.
Jeremy
So, you said that you moved to Texas after I think you left college the first time. Where were you coming from?
Roderick
I was born and raised in Wisconsin.
Jeremy
Okay.
Roderick
Yeah.
Jeremy
Okay. So, you grew up, I guess, playing hockey.
Roderick
I have played hockey since I could walk. Yeah.
Jeremy
Really? Yeah. Very cool, very cool. Okay. I want you to. And by the way, your journey may be often characterized as nontraditional, but we have a lot of students here who had another career.
And, you know, some students had a took a year or two to do something else between college and law school. And then some are, they've been in school since they were in kindergarten and they, you know, come straight through. But I think it gives the students, like you who did have a career, it gives them kind of a perspective on things that maybe, maybe some of the legal cases they read doesn't seem so abstract; that there's more concrete. I'm wondering if you think your career has helped you at all in, in law school?
Roderick
Yeah. Definitely. I think it gives me definitely perspective. And I, I think it allows me to see the law as we're learning. It is something that we're learning. And I really appreciate being able to be in a environment where we're able to do that. The, I think…
Generally, when you can take something that is academic or a rule and have examples in your head that, oh, wow. Like, I see how this applies here. Like you taught us civil procedure, and I had worked with a lot of people who were not able to, like, use their claims because of the statute of limitations. And so in that environment, I mean, it seems unjust when you see it from the outside, but then learning sort of the mechanism of how it works, you understand sort of the reasoning behind it, and you start to appreciate that, you know, these rules are in place to help the system work and function.
Jeremy
Yeah. So, yeah. And you've got the, you've got some context for it, I think is, is what I'm saying. You've got some context that allows you to process the, the, the, the doctrine a little better I would think.
Roderick
Yeah.
Jeremy
Yeah. Okay. I want you to tell me what the Ultimate Writer competition is; Ultimate Writer competition.
Roderick
Baylor has a lot of competitions.
Jeremy
We do.
Roderick
Yeah. Seems to be a thing that we really appreciate is putting students into competitive environments. And so, one of the things that we do is a writing competition school-wide.
Jeremy
Among our Baylor Law students. Yeah.
Roderick
Yeah. And so, with that, I think every year, right? We do a writing competition, and this year it was a brief, so there was a fact pattern we were given.
We were given kind of a structure of cases that were applicable and then government motion to compel someone to unlock their phone. And so, they'd arrested someone that had a phone on them. The government had actually supplied information that they said was on the phone. And, in that we were supposed to write a response brief to why this wasn't a valid thing to ask.
Jeremy
So, you participated in the competition. How did you do? Well, let me just say so I don't put you in an awkward position. You won the competition, right? You are the Ultimate Writer 2026. There are a lot of good writers in the law school. I'm wondering what, what do you think, if you reflect on it, what do you think made you stand out in that competition or rise to the top?
Roderick
It's a good question and one I've asked myself. I have definitely read a lot in my life, and I think there's a lot of, like, years of professional experience where I think about how I'm writing something. And so, if you're working with a doctor who's busy and you need something from them, you're thinking very deeply about, how do I say that quickly?
How do I say that cleanly so they don't have to think too much, and they can just give me the, the paperwork, the signed form, the prescription, or whatever that I need from them. And so, I feel like one of the big challenges for law school, for me personally, has been not, not having the skills, but how to apply what I have to the environment of legal writing and the conventions and form of that.
I think that's been something, especially with the writing competition. I've looked for those opportunities whenever I get them to like, engage and to get practice in. We didn't have LARC over the winter. So, I was like, let me, let me try to do a brief writing. There's no stakes, there's no pressure. And then I get really into the problem.
I felt fairly passionately about this imaginary guy.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Roderick
You know, the government said, hey, we sent you this email of all these photos, and now we want you to unlock your phone and show us your whole life.
Jeremy
Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there in what you're saying. But one of the key things is, I think, you said you got really into this fake person.
Empathy is a key characteristic of an attorney, I think, particularly in the context of an appellate, appellate advocacy, trial advocacy, other context as well. But you can, you were walking around in this guy's shoes like as Atticus Finch said, you're walking around in this guy's shoes, and you your passion made you… Your concern, your sincerity made you more effective.
The, the other thing I'm wondering, a lot of people come to law school, and they think they are good writers and they; they are good writers. How what observations do you have on how legal writing is different, like that transition from the sort of writing you had done in the past to legal writing, like in the brief you wrote and won the competition with?
Roderick
It feels very constraining at first. I think there are, like I said, conventions, like there are definite forms of how you want to write, the structure that is expected for brief, the formality, like the sort of tone and voice, but I think once you get in there, there's actually a lot of freedom to be creative.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Roderick
It, to maybe use another analogy, it's like if, if you're good at playing classical guitar and all of a sudden you decide to pick up rock, like you have to learn what that form is and how to play with a band that maybe you haven't before, but I think the skills are still there.
And so, applying those in that way you can find the same level of creativity.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Roderick
I mean, we look at Van Halen or someone who I'm sure could pick up a classical piece and play “Cannon in D”. So. Yeah.
Jeremy
It's a good, good analogy. Okay. I want to talk about what you did over spring break which was recent as we're recording this. What did you do?
Roderick
We went as a group through Baylor I think through big Baylor, to the Fred Gray Symposium in Alabama. Frank Ray was a civil rights leader. He was the attorney for Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks, Claudette Coleman. So, several other people in the, the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 60s and they had a two day, two and a half day conference.
And so, it was talking about voting rights in the South. There's a lot of civil rights talk, and we got to tour that, meet some of these people. I had a wonderful lunch with a woman who knew Rosa Parks. So, it took a lot of these things that were fairly abstract. I mean, I, like I said, I like to read, but, you know, I've never, coming from the north, living in Texas, I haven't necessarily interacted with that history in such a personal and tangible way.
Jeremy
Personal way. Yeah, I heard rave reviews about the, about the symposium. And, and you're right we, we did this through Dr. Sarah Barton, who's Baylor University's Director for Pastoral Care and Associate Chaplain. So, it was a great opportunity that we had, and we want to make sure some of our students got, got the opportunity to do it.
And it sounds like it was really good. You mentioned some of the experiences you had at the symposium, but I'm wondering if there was one thing or one conversation or that really stuck with you the most. And, and if so, why?
Roderick
One is hard to label, I think. I think I would say two things really stood out.
And the first one was a great quote by Faulkner that the past isn't dead. It's not even past. And I think that, that to me, seeing people from the ACLU who are currently working on civil rights things, and the, the tenor of it is different now. The impacted populations may be different now, but there are still the same needs for vulnerable populations that need people to stand up for them and to translate their experiences into something that will make their lives better in a significant way.
And I think the second real standout thing was just the kind of shared feeling of humanity within that. You know we, we walked across the, the bridge that, voting, oh, I'm and I forget the exact name of it, but the, the Voting Rights Act came out of. Kind of these, these protests that were happening in Montgomery, in Selma.
And so, there was a march in, I believe in 1965, that kind of ended in violence, people being beaten. And we walked across that bridge.
Jeremy
Are you talking about the Pettus Bridge? Edmund Pettus bridge?
Roderick
Yeah. And, got to see the photos of, you know, people being just clubbed and sprayed and all of these things that, I mean, not to venture into too dangerous a territory we've seen somewhat recently in our own country again.
And I think the thing that is, you know, I'm still grappling with it in some ways is just the like, lack of humanity it takes to do that.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Roderick
And so, yeah.
Jeremy
You talked earlier about, you know, your decision to leave the career you had and, and find something more meaningful and maybe something you, that can have more of an impact in, in serving in your community and, and you're in the right profession for that.
If you've got a heart to help with the things you, the sorts of things you were just, you were just mentioning. I mean, one of the things I hope that no law student leaves Baylor without knowing is that what we believe is that serving is the thing that every lawyer must do. And yes, serve your clients, but also serve your community and try to leave it better in the profession, better than, than when you, than when you found it. Okay.
Roderick
Can I tag on that?
Jeremy
Sure, sure, sure.
Roderick
And I think I didn't necessarily realize that from the outside applying to Baylor. But I see that from the inside at Baylor is that, like, service is a thread here that is really important. And I think, you know, I talk to friends still in at Texas State and they ask, you know, what are we doing here?
There? And I, I think at Baylor there's a definite call to service, whether that is from professors who feel called to teach and to serve in that way, whether that is through, I mean, we're a private university that has, you know, religious convictions. You know, I think people feel called to service in their communities in that way.
And I definitely appreciate that. And that's not something that you think looking at law school. I mean, I was looking at social work for grad school and kind of saw law as maybe I can find a path through this, like, I can, I can do something where I can have a family and pay for diapers while also make an impact in my community.
And I think that, you know, one of the happy coincidences of life is that, you know, things kind of sort themselves into where you're supposed to be. You know, I reread one of my application essays and it was kind of like, well, yeah, I can see why, you know, that connected with people here.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Roderick
I think that, that, you know, I wouldn't have known that, you know, two years ago applying to law schools. But I'm glad that it's worked out that way.
Jeremy
I'm glad you, you pick up on that thread in that, in that theme because it's something we, we all hold. The faculty and the staff want all of our students to pick up on. So, from that, we will make a 180-degree turn to go to the very silly lightning round.
Questions are silly. Your answers have to be short. If you have two hours of free time Roderick, would you read a book or watch a movie?
Roderick
Oh, read a book.
Jeremy
You're going on a long drive. Do you listen to music or podcasts?
Roderick
I'll switch. Yeah, and actually, I won't, I won't; split the middle - audiobook.
Jeremy
Do you study in silence or with background noise?
Roderick
As much chaos as possible.
Jeremy
What favorite kind of chaos in the background?
Roderick
Loud techno music.
Jeremy
Oh, wow. Favorite holiday?
Roderick
Short answers. 4th of July. But because I get to see all my friends and we have a hot dog eating competition every year.
Jeremy
How many have you done?
Roderick
I have won twice. Eleven the first time, thirteen the second.
Jeremy
How many? How much time do you get to eat them?
Roderick
Ten minutes. Did not feel good either time.
Jeremy
At my age that sounds dangerous.
Roderick
Yeah.
Jeremy
Favorite kind of weather?
Roderick
One of the great things about Waco are the thunderstorms.
Jeremy
What's your favorite board game?
Roderick
Risk.
Jeremy
Concert or sporting event?
Roderick
Sporting event.
Jeremy
You're going to the airport. Are you getting there early or just in time?
Roderick
Early. And then reading in the terminal somewhere.
Jeremy
Big group gathering or a small circle?
Roderick
Small group.
Jeremy
Cook at home or go out to eat.
Cook at home.
Jeremy
Okay. You've passed the lightning round. I understand you may have a question for me.
Roderick
Yeah. Let me see. Here. So I told Nancy I want to make you work for a little bit. So, outside of the Bible…
Jeremy
Producer Nancy McEachern…
Roderick
Yes. Outside of the Bible, what book has had the largest impact on you and your life?
Jeremy
I'm glad your question assumes that I would have said Bible. I appreciate that. Otherwise…
Jeremy
What did you say? Largest impact on my life?
Roderick
Yeah. So, Tyler Cowen has a concept called quake books that, like, kind of living through an earthquake, you never quite view the ground the same way.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Roderick
I think, I like to think about books being able to change someone's life like that. And so, I'm curious if you have, you know, any of that you've read that…
Jeremy
I'm going to give you two answers to that question.
Another student asked me recently, I think I think the question was favorite novel. And I have a different answer for that. But quake book? I would say probably something by C.S. Lewis, and I hesitate to choose between them, but probably Mere Christianity. I think that did change the way I see my own faith, quite a bit.
But I'm going to give you a different answer, because this is a book I just finished. It's, it came out about 15 years ago, and it's called Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C. Gwynne. And I read that over spring break and just thoroughly enjoyed it. Have you read that one?
Roderick
Yeah. It’s outstanding.
Jeremy
Yeah. It's outstanding, finalist for the Pulitzer Prize you know, at that time.
And I just thought it was eye opening. And you mentioned earlier, history isn't prologue. It's not even, whatever the prologue is not even past. That book really drove that point home to me where all of these events that… The book is about the 40-year war between white settlers and the Comanche tribe mostly in Texas, but across the southern Plains.
And, to hear the place, the place names where these events happened, I mean, I'm there all the time and, and so that book breathed life into a lot of these places that I visit in Texas quite a bit. And so, I, I highly recommend that book. Yeah.
Roderick
Yeah. I thought it was a really stunning portrayal of sort of how an era ends. Right?
Of the summer moon, it's the last moon of the summer. Things are changing. Seasons are changing. And I think, I thought it was a really beautiful portrayal of. Yeah,
Jeremy
Yeah. And it's, it's, it's sort of sweeping in the sense of, as you said, it's, it's collision of civilizations, each one not really understanding the other at all.
Roderick
Yeah.
Jeremy
And so, it's that story and it's the, the story of the Comanche tribe, but it's also a story of this young woman who is taken in. The daughter of white settlers taken into the Comanche tribes at the end. Parker, who marries a Comanche chief and then has his three children, and one of them is Quanah Parker, the only, person ever to be chief of all of the Comanche.
And, I was just… It's just a stunning book. It's. It was fantastic.
Roderick
You might like Patrick Radden Keefe. He has a couple like that. Empire of Pain is about Purdue Pharma. Similar, like sweeping, but really well written. Really good.
Roderick
Yeah.
Jeremy
So, yeah. Roderick, this has been great. Thank you very much.
Roderick
Thank you.
