For Such a Time as This: A New Chapter for 1L Justin Paley at Baylor Law School
For Such a Time as This: A New Chapter for 1L Justin Paley at Baylor Law School
In this episode of Counseller’s Corner, Dean Jeremy Counseller sits down with 1L Justin Paley, a former tech recruiter with advanced degrees in religious studies, and the host of the Thinking Biblically and Beyond podcast. Justin opens up about his unconventional path to Baylor Law School and the unexpected parallels between theology, podcasting, and legal reasoning.
They cover everything from the historical roots of law to the future of AI in legal practice… with a lightning round that reveals Justin’s ice cream allegiance and dream travel destination.
Justin’s journey to law school demonstrates that no experience is wasted. Even the most unexpected backgrounds can lay the groundwork for a meaningful legal career.
Watch This Episode on YouTube
TRANSCRIPT
Jeremy
Hi, I'm Jeremy Counseller, Dean of Baylor Law School, and welcome to another edition of Counseller’s Corner. I'm joined today by first year law student Justin Paley. Justin, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing?
Justin
I'm doing great. How are you?
Jeremy
I'm good. Thanks for asking. So, I was looking over your resume. You have a, a degree from Duke in religious, in religion, and then another master's degree from Yale in religion, religious studies. And I found out in preparation for this interview that you host a podcast called Thinking Biblically and Beyond. And because I'm a well-prepared host, I listened to a couple of these podcast episodes.
They're fantastic. So, thank you for slumming it with me on Counseller's Corner today. But I'm wondering, what made you want to start the podcast?
Justin
Yeah. So, it was really, more of a desire to scratch that academic itch. Being out of grad school for a couple of years, I was really missing, missing that world. I didn't necessarily want to make it my profession or continue on, and go to more school for it, but I still did love always reading, learning about new trends in the field and working from home and, wanting to get some, more, you know, intellectual exercise in there beyond just what I was doing from my 9 to 5. Working from home afforded that opportunity. And so, I was able to kind of kill two birds with one stone and take on a project. That that was exciting. Something I hadn't done before, but also, immerse myself back into that world a little bit.
Jeremy
Yeah. Well, I said it's great. I've listened to a couple of episodes and the one on Paul, I think you actually have several on Paul maybe, or at least. But, but the one on Paul, I listen to was just incredible. I learned a lot from it. It was very thought provoking. So, I, I, I just commend you on both your knowledge, but also your ability to articulate these important points about Paul's letters that are in the New Testament.
It's really good. Tell me this in your podcasting studio, do you have people sitting just off camera and out of earshot of the microphone who tell you things like, sit up straight and don't, don't talk over your guest?
Justin
I do not. My, my extensive operation, consists of me in my upstairs room and maybe my dog sitting next to me, who I might have to tell a couple of times off mic to, to keep it down a little bit, but that's about it.
Jeremy
I was just, I was just asking for a friend who has a podcast. Okay. I'm wondering how your study of religion… I mean, clearly, it's an interest. You spent years doing it. You've got a podcast. You know a lot. How that contributed to your decision to go to law school. Maybe the law school decision is just very practical, or do you see that there's some skills that translate?
Justin
I definitely think there's some skills that translate. Definitely the, the research skills I found to be really, really helpful and transferable. And I think that those are going to definitely pay dividends once I get out there in the field and start working within the law, and then also just thinking about, ideas more generally, thinking about why things are the way that they are and, approaching problems from, from that, more bird's eye view and then getting down into the details, but really making sure having that ground foundation really solid and really getting a fundamental understanding of that.
I think that approach to, to studying and trying to understand the subject has also been pretty transferable here so far.
Jeremy
Yeah. When I was listening to your podcast, I was struck by the fact that you're someone who has thought deeply about a subject, and I was thinking about that in the context of law school. I, I find that sometimes students often want a shortcut, like what's the, what's the shortcut? There really isn't one. I mean, you, you know, to think deeply about a subject is, can be difficult, but ultimately that's the way that you get to a great understanding of any subject.
And clearly, you've done that. And I certainly agree that should translate well to, to law school. Is there a, an episode of your podcast that you think you know that's the, the really, that's the one I'm proudest of.
Justin
Oh, I really like my podcast on the pastoral epistles. So, first Timothy, second Timothy, Titus. That's a personal bias of mine because that's what I devote a lot of my study to. That's what I wrote my thesis on. I find them maybe the most fascinating text in the Bible, but I know they're not necessarily a fan favorite or the most popular, but that's, that's why I like them.
So, I would say those episodes, I think I did a good job of laying out the issues there.
Jeremy
Good. That's my selfish question. Knowing which one I'm going to listen to, to next. You've got a lot of, a lot of episodes. Now, after you finished your education, or at least I think this is the order of things after you finished at Yale, you got a job doing what?
Justin
I did tech recruiting.
Jeremy
Tech recruiting. Okay, tell me about tech recruiting. Not exactly religious studies.
Justin
No, not exactly religious studies. But I would say towards the end of my master's program, I, I decided that going onto PhD was not something I wanted to do. I thought I wanted to be a professor in religious studies, but it just, as I learned more about it, I couldn't really see that being my career, myself being happy in that world and going for to school for another eight years, and to enter that world.
So, once I graduated, I was open to any sort of job. I moved back to North Carolina, where my wife was still finishing up her program at Duke. And, just put out feelers and this, a company called Bank and reached out to me. They were building out a new recruiting center in North Carolina. We're looking to hire people.
Justin
And I said, yeah, sounds interesting. And I gave it a shot, and it was, great career to do for six years, but definitely not something that I could see myself in long term. And I really wanted to go back to something that was really going to challenge me. And particularly intellectually challenge me.
Jeremy
So maybe, maybe law school is something you've had in mind as a possibility for a long time. But I'm wondering if there was a moment where, where you realized, okay, I am going to do this now, and what was it that was the impetus to make that sort of final firm decision to go to law school?
Justin
Yeah, law has definitely been something I've always been interested in, especially from a historical perspective. Just being a history buff. I loved learning about the old Supreme Court cases and, you know, AP, U.S. history and all that. But I would say the impetus was really that, I decided that I wasn't going to stay in my job any longer.
And there was always, always a reason to find to stay there. You know, it's always very easy to find a reason to stay in your current situation and not really make that that big leap into a world that you're unfamiliar with or you're not sure what's going to happen. So, it really just came down to, one day I decided, yeah, I'm going to make the decision.
Then the next week, I put in my notice, started studying for the LSAT, and applied to, to law school. And that all happened within just a matter of a couple of months. So, it wasn't necessarily a decision out of nowhere. But the decision to go through with it was a little bit more unplanned.
Jeremy
Yeah. It's a courageous act. I mean, because law school is an, a huge investment of time. It's investment of money for you, opportunity cost of, of leaving a job, and I know it will pay off for you. But you're right. I mean, there comes a point where, if it's not now, when, when will it ever be? And I think as time goes by, it becomes harder and harder to make that make that leap.
So, I commend you on your, on your courage. When your recruiting career, do you think any of those skills translate to, to law school at all?
Justin
Yeah. Two big things stand out. Especially more of the back-end research stuff. The, just more practically. No, we're learning more about how to use Lexis and Westlaw and kind of the Boolean strings that's, you know, very much within recruiting. That's what I was doing on a day-to-day basis. So, approaching research from that way and trying to find those hard-to-find cases or hard to find case law that will really help round out your argument or whatever the case may be, those skills, are definitely proving helpful.
And I would say just getting used to talking to people, and making those connections, having that more, natural networking skill set that, that I was able to develop in recruiting and talking to people from different backgrounds, talking about jobs that I didn't really understand, but was really kind of learning on the job and learning from these really smart people who, you know, went to MIT and in Berkeley for computer science.
And that's very much outside of my world but just learning to be able to hold conversations with those people and have intelligent conversations with them, I think has also translated very, very well and I know will come in handy.
Jeremy
Did you say you've worked six years? You worked six years in tech recruiting?
Justin
Yes.
Jeremy
So, lots of students who go to law school, they've been in school from kindergarten through high school, immediately to college, immediately to law school. You got a master's degree. You worked for six years. You are what would be described as a nontraditional law student.
Although more and more nontraditional are more traditional these days. I'm wondering how you found that transition, where your cohort is, for the most part, younger than you? They've not worked, at least not for, you know, not for six years. How has that been, been for you?
Justin
It's taken some getting used to. But I think what I've come to learn very quickly is that, like, regardless of whether I'm older or younger than somebody, we're all kind of in the same boat here with this, we all didn't really know what to expect coming into law school. We were all, dealing with how to, to manage our studying time, how we study best, and, and kind of what our workflow works best for us.
So, in that way, I definitely felt, you know, very much in the same boat, but at the same time, you know, having to commute, you know, being married, having that work experience definitely felt like I was sometimes in a different place than others. But I think that's also helped me keep things in perspective, too, that I'm not used to, you know, the school environment, because I've been out of it for, for a number of years.
But getting back into it and getting back into kind of that fresh mindset and keeping an open mind to this new environment has been, took again, took some getting used to for me. But I think once I kind of fully embraced that, it's, it's been very, very helpful and help me to really connect with everybody in my cohort, regardless of, you know, how old they are or what, life stage they might be at. Yeah.
Jeremy
You said, you know, you're, you're all in the same boat in the sense that you, none of you, know quite what to expect. I'm wondering what has been most surprising to you about the study of the law? Because there had to be some sort of starting expectations about what studying law is going to be like. And I'm wondering, what's been most surprising to you?
Justin
Honestly, what's been most surprising is all of the focus on the history aspect and understanding how the law came to be. I knew that there would be some of that, but I think also, no, nobody in my family was a lawyer, so I didn't really have somebody to tell me what to expect there. So, in my mind, I was thinking more of, I guess, what the average person would think of a lawyer, thinking of that about them on TV, and that it's just, you know, a lot of arguing, how to debate, how to structure arguments.
And, I was pleasantly surprised to find that, you know, there is a lot of that, but that that's, you know, that's taken three steps when I haven't taken the first step, which is to really understand those foundations which are rooted in so much history. And being able to trace those ideas has been really, really fascinating and helped me get a better appreciation of just how much goes into being a lawyer.
And it's more than just, you know, performing in front of a jury. It's so much more than that.
Jeremy
Absolutely. So let me ask you this because I'm a fan of your podcast. I'm particularly interested in the answer to this question. To the extent you have time to read, watch or listen to something in your leisure time, what's the thing you've read, watched, or listened to recently that has been, sort of particularly pleasant or edifying to you?
Justin
I'm a big podcast listener, especially with the commute gives me a lot of good podcast time. One of my, my favorites, consistently, is called The Rest is History. It's a great, more conversational, relaxed podcast. But they go over, I mean, you name it, subjects from the French Revolution up into, you know, the Cultural Revolution in the 60s and anything and everything in between.
It's got two British guys who are pretty funny, so, you know, brings an aspect of that too. So, I find that really nice to listen to because they don't take themselves too seriously. But I think they do a great job at, laying out the history so that you can understand, you know, what happened in, the War of the Roses or the French Revolution without getting too bogged down in the nitty gritty that you, you know, you might start to get a little bored very quickly.
Jeremy
I will check out The Rest is History. Okay, Justin, it's time for the lightning round. Which just means the questions are a little silly and your answers have to be short. Okay. Morning person or night owl?
Justin
Morning person.
Jeremy
Would you rather relax at the beach or in the mountains?
Justin
In the mountains.
Jeremy
Favorite ice cream flavor?
Justin
Ooh let's say chocolate chip cookie dough.
Jeremy
Would you rather read a book or watch a movie?
Justin
Read a book.
Jeremy
Okay, now I'm going to ask you what genre of book, but it can't be history. It's got to be your second favorite genre.
Justin
My second favorite genre. I say fiction more generally, but I love classic fiction. So Great Gatsby, that that type of stuff.
Jeremy
You're just a history guy, man, and you're just going to read books. Closest fiction to history as you can get. Favorite, favorite season of the year?
Justin
It was summer before I moved to Texas, but it's a little bit too hot here, so I would say now the fall.
Jeremy
Yeah, I agree with that. If you could teleport anywhere in the world right now, where would you go?
Justin
Anywhere in the world. I think I would have to choose Greece or Italy.
Jeremy
That tracks, favorite holiday?
Justin
I like Christmas, I like Christmas. I love seeing the snow again. Don't get to see it as much in Texas, but love, love a white Christmas.
Jeremy
Tacos or hamburgers?
Justin
I might get in trouble for this one. But hamburgers.
Jeremy
Okay, I understand you might have a question or two for me.
Justin
I do. So, one that I was curious about was, with more and more cases being held virtually rather than in person, do you think that that at all changes, or should change, law professors’ approach to teaching, or just general philosophy behind teaching in law school?
Jeremy
I don't know about general philosophy. But in terms of an approach to teaching, yes, I do think it has changed some of the things we do around here. One of the, this is just my own personal opinion, one of the things that I learned during Covid when we initially went online, entirely online to teach, and then we went kind of hybrid.
Some students are in-person, some students are online. And then we went back fully in-person. The worst of those three things, by far, in my opinion, was the hybrid, where some students are watching through, you know, a video conferencing app and others are in person. That was the worst, because really, you need two different ways to communicate to those two audiences, and you can't do both at the same time, or at least it's very difficult.
So I think the other thing we learned in Covid is there's a lot we can do through video conferencing in particular, and what has happened, as you point out, is we do depositions, by, you know, video conference essentially, all of that, including the exchange of documents can happen, I think increasingly at trials, some witnesses are appearing remotely through a video conferencing, through video conferencing software.
So, what that means for us as a law schools, we have to teach the skills because they they're a little bit different. And so, we are starting to do that. How to take a deposition when it's not live, not in-person, you're not sitting as we are right now across from each other. Though the deposition, the remote deposition is now the norm, it's not the unusual.
It's the norm. And there's some benefits to clients of that. Right? You have to pay the travel costs there. And so, they now know it's possible. They're not going to tend to pay for, for anything else. Now, with respect to trials, I think we're a long way away from having trials where a completely remote trial is the norm.
I think we're a ways away from that. I mean, they're, you know, there are due process issues there and in the criminal side confrontation clause issues as well. So, I think we're, we're a ways away from that. But it does require us to change the way we change the skill set we're trying to give to our students, for sure. Yeah.
Justin
Yeah. And my, my second question to kind of build off of that a little bit was, with all the changes in higher education due to, to AI tools, I mean, just thinking of Lexis and Westlaw, do you see law school education going more and more down that route and those things eventually becoming indispensable to law? Or do you think that they'll always be more of a of a supplement to how students are learning in law school, and they'll never be, you know, education, apart from those types of tools?
Jeremy
I think AI is going to be an essential tool for lawyers out in the practice of law. I think many lawyers are already seeing it's an essential tool for, for their practices. Well, that alone means we've got to incorporate it into the training that we provide here. I mean, what are the AI tools that lawyers need to know how to use?
And of course, those tools will change over time. I mean, the technology is involving so, so rapidly. So, we're, we're doing those things in our legal writing and research courses. We're doing those things in practice court teaching students this is an AI tool that is commonly use. In trying to give them a sense of what whatever AI tool you use, they're going to have some things in common, and they're going to have some potential pitfalls as well.
There are also ethical issues around the use of AI, and we want to make sure our students understand those. And just institutionally, as a, as a university, I know Baylor University is really trying to think, okay, how do we avoid the negatives of AI, but how do we embrace the, the positives? And I certainly want the law school to do that as well.
I have found AI to be quite helpful with respect to some things and completely unhelpful and even not, not just unhelpful, counterproductive. In regards to others, I think if you're relying on current AI models to tell you what is true, that's a mistake. If you rely on an AI model to help you make your own thoughts and work product better, I think they do a lot.
They do. They perform better on those sorts of tasks. That's just kind of where I think it is in my own experience. But no, you can't bury our head in the sand about AI. It's not, it's not going away.
Justin
Right. Yeah, yeah. Very true.
Jeremy
Justin, thank you so much. And I enjoy your podcast, and I really appreciate you coming on the Counseller's Corner.
Justin
Yeah. Thanks so much.
