Chalkboards, Concrete, and Casebooks: Jerry Attaway’s Unconventional Road to Baylor Law
Chalkboards, Concrete, and Casebooks: Jerry Attaway’s Unconventional Road to Baylor Law
Before he was briefing cases, Jerry Attaway was breaking down the Bill of Rights for eighth graders. In this episode of Counseller’s Corner, Dean Jeremy Counseller talks with Jerry—now in his second year at Baylor Law School—about his bold pivot from public school teaching to legal training and the surprising ways his past experiences continue to shape his law school journey and beyond.
The conversation ranges from the deeply personal to the laugh-out-loud funny. Jerry shares what it’s like to be a first-generation college graduate wrestling with imposter syndrome, how summer starters at Baylor form tight-knit bonds, and why construction law (yes, construction law) unexpectedly sparked his passion. Along the way, he and Dean Counseller swap thoughts on helping pre-law students find their voice, nerdy study snacks, llama ownership, and the myth of the dome light felony.
Jerry also turns the tables to ask Dean Counseller some questions, leading to reflections on truck stops, long-haul dreams, and the surprisingly profound advice Dean Counseller received during his own judicial clerkship.
Watch This Episode on YouTube
TRANSCRIPT
Jeremy
I'm Jeremy Counseller, Dean of Baylor Law School. Welcome to Counseller’s Corner. Today, my guest is second year law student Jerry Attaway. Welcome to the podcast, Jerry.
Jerry
Thank you, Dean.
Jeremy
I have a very specific memory of you in the civil procedure course you took with me. And I don't know if you remember this, but I'm going to tell you what happened. So I am in class, and I am using an example of my best friend who was a middle school teacher, and I made a kind of snide remark that nothing will cause you to question your career choice faster than being a middle school teacher.
Jeremy
And I happened when I said this, which I was trying to be funny. But when I said this, I looked at you and you were nodding your head up and down vigorously. And so I'd like to ask, why did you connect with that comment?
Jerry
I believe at that time you also said it's like “Were you a middle school teacher? I was like,” yes”. And I said, “mistakes were made.”
Jeremy
So, not by you necessarily, but the unnamed actor made some mistakes and…
Jerry
Yeah.
Jeremy
Okay.
Jerry
Yes, sir. Yeah. No, it. I loved working with kids. But, it was, you know, working with kids and, especially, teenagers. And so, it, the kids themselves were great, and I loved the content that I was teaching, but, you definitely start questioning some things on, on certain days, for sure.
Jeremy
Was it public school?
Jerry
Yes, sir.
Jeremy
Okay. What grade did you teach?
Jerry
I taught eighth-grade U.S. history.
Jeremy
I think to myself, back to myself in eighth grade, and I would not have wanted to teach myself now as a teacher. And you said you taught history.
Jerry
Yes, sir.
Jeremy
What's your favorite thing to teach? What was your favorite topic to teach?
Jerry
By far the Constitution.
Jeremy
Okay.
Jerry
Absolutely.
Jeremy
So, your interest in the law has been around for quite some time.
Jerry
Oh, yeah. Constitution. I've, I've loved it since as far back as I can remember. My heroes growing up are founding fathers, and they were all attorneys, and they all spoke with such reverence about it. So, Jefferson, Adams, my Cousin Vinny, you know, they, they all seem to really, really just enjoy the law.
And, and I love I love what the Constitution means. And I love that the ideas and the principles baked into it.
Jeremy
Vinnie is an underrated founding father, and everyone should watch that movie if they haven't. I will, I will say that that, that film has the best depiction of a, an attack on perception, to show lack of credibility that I've, I've seen, I've seen filmed in a, in a movie. How long were you a middle school teacher?
Jerry
Six years.
Jeremy
Six years? Okay. What is it that made, you've got this longstanding interest in the law. What made you say, okay, now I'm going to take this big step. I'm going to, I'm going to leave a job that pays me, and I'm going to go, to go to law school where we don't pay you.
Jerry
Honestly, law school had always kind of been the dream. Whenever I first graduated from UNT, I actually got accepted into SMU. So luckily other mistakes were made, and so I ended up in the right place. But I, I just kind of balked. I come from a blue-collar family. And so, my parents always pushed education. They put a lot of emphasis on it, but, I didn't really know what the next step looks, looked like.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Jerry
And so, I think a lot of it was probably just, at the time, I wanted to go into the military. And so, I was going to do that after I graduated, but then it turned out I had a heart murmur, and law school just kind of felt like this distant thing, and I kind of played it safe.
Once I got into teaching, though, like I said, I love working with the kids, but there was always this thing nagging in the back of my head like, when are you most excited? And it was as soon as we would get to the Constitution unit. And so, talking about the principles and teaching that with the kids and, I looked at myself and I said, you're, you're being afraid.
And so, you just need to take the plunge. And I started looking at my, my birthday, and I realized I was getting a little long in the tooth. So, I thought…
Jeremy
You're still a very young man.
Jerry
Well, I thought, if I'm going to, I'll wake up and I won't be. And so that's why. That's why I really wanted to do it. And honestly, Covid kind of put it into overdrive. And so, I just figured, you know, it made me think. And I was like, you know, if I'm going to do this, I need to do it.
Jeremy
Yeah. I'm curious if you, you're a teacher, experienced teacher. You taught for six years, and now you're being taught. How has that changed your perspective on the what you're being taught and how you're being taught?
Jerry
The one thing that I really appreciate is one, I can appreciate what the professors do. I can see the various ways that they are trying to not only guide the lesson but guide the discussion. And so and so in some ways, some of my classmates would be like, how’d you know that's what they're going to say? And it's like, real recognizes real.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Jerry
But I think a lot of it is I really appreciate how much effort it takes to take such a complex topic and make it understandable. So, even with US history, I didn't feel like it was that complex, but I really had to break it down to its various essentials. And so, whenever I'm sitting in classrooms, you know, whether it be towards civil procedure, property, these very complex ideas, they're able to put them in ways that you can understand them.
And it gives me a greater appreciation. So, I would remember telling this to my classmates like, I'm like, y'all don't understand how difficult that is, what they're doing. And it comes off as effortlessly because the professors have put in the work and stuff. But it's very hard work to do that. You just do it effectively.
Jeremy
Yeah. Well, we, we certainly value high quality teaching around here. And just in my own experience as a, as a teacher, I can tell when I've done exactly what you just said, made the complex simple. And then I can tell sometimes, like, I didn't quite get it that time and you got to go back to the drawing board and think about a different way to, to make the complex accessible and, and understandable.
I want to go back to your background. You said you come from a blue-collar background. My understanding is you're a first-generation college graduate. Is that right?
Jerry
Yes
Jeremy
How? Law school might seem intimidating to some people, particularly if you don't have anybody in your, in your family who, you know, graduated college, much less went, went to law school.
So, how is it? How's your experience been as a first-generation college graduate who's now going to be a lawyer and is going through law school?
Jerry
The one thing that, what I'm, what I'm excited about is that whenever I do have kids one day is that, I can help kind of guide them through it. A lot of it is, especially just kind of the way I was raised was, you need to take, you need to take care of the problem. And so, whatever it was, whether it was navigating, going through, figuring out LSAK or the LSAT or even just what it means to go through the entire admissions process, it was a learning, it was a pretty steep learning curve.
And one of the things that I have a regret about is that I didn't take advantage of what the schools offers as far as like their kind of helping programs and stuff like that. So even in my undergrad, they had like pre-law advising, but I was like, well, if I have questions, why don't I just research myself?
And I could have probably saved myself a lot of headaches and, really just a lot. I wouldn't have had to exert as much effort going through if I was just kind of humbled myself a little bit and say, I need help. As far as being a first-gen law student here, it's actually been fantastic because the staff here is top notch.
Everyone does their best to make you feel welcome. And, being out of school for so long, I really wanted to try to take advantage of as much as I could from law school. And so whatever has been offered, I try to go out and take advantage of it, to use it, you know, and to, it's, it's not a, it's not a weakness to ask for help.
And that's been something that was hard for me to learn eventually. And so, yeah, it's, it’s actually, the transition hasn't been as bad as I thought it was going to be. It was a lot of kind of self-imposed restraints.
Jeremy
Yeah, I had a similar experience. I'm a first-generation college grad, too. I had a similar experience going through law school, particularly, I would say the first year. I mean, you're into your second year now, but in the first year, sort of the, the what I now know is called imposter syndrome. I didn't have a word for it then, but, but just to say, I'm not sure I belong here because it is difficult.
Law school is challenging, and there can be that internal voice that says, yeah, you know, you really you just can't do it. But the truth is, it challenges everyone. And I think what you said is exactly right to, to ask for help when you need it. But also, everybody here wants you to be successful, even though it's challenging, want you to be successful.
And I think that's a really important insight that that you have is you've got to ask for help and then and you've also got to know you can do it. And it helps if other people are telling you, hey, yes, you can. You can do this. As you know, we have three entering classes, one in the spring, one in the summer and one in the fall.
You started in the summer, as I recall. What's it like to be a first term law student in the summer?
Jerry
It was, honestly, the best thing about it is that we kind of have the run of the place. There's not as many people here, so there's no parking issues. The AC is usually cranked up, so it's nice and pleasant. The one thing that I really liked about the summer and that I've kind of noticed the difference between the summer starters and other ones, is how close knit our group is.
During orientation, a lot of the, a lot of the staff, just various peoples, comes to mind, Miss Simms, Dean Espree. They told us law school, law school is a competitive place, but care about one another. And the other thing that they told us was that our professional, and I believe you touched on this too, is your professional reputation starts now.
And there's a way to win and to win, right? You can be a jerk and win, and then nobody wants to work with you, or you can still win, and then people still want to work with you afterwards. And so, in the summer, we only really had each other to kind of lean on. And that's the one thing that I was pleasantly surprised with, with law school, because I read, I read 1L, I watched The Paper Chase and I saw all of the, competitiveness and that sort of stuff.
Jerry
And don't get me wrong, there's still plenty of competitive people, but I was pleasantly surprised that we were able to be there for one another and to kind of help to help each other be better. And, you know, the chips fall where they may sort of thing. And that's one thing that I've been very happy about that I've noticed with summer starters as opposed to the others is that we do seem to be a little bit more closer knit than some of the other larger classes and stuff like that.
Jeremy
Yeah. I think the summertime is a great, a great place to start because it is a little lower key around here in the building. There aren't as many students in the building. And I think what you said about the summer class is true, but I also think it's true more broadly. You're in even if you start in one of the other classes, which are larger, you're still with a relatively small group of people, and you're going through this intense and challenging experience.
And what I know, talking to Baylor law, Baylor lawyers, Baylor law alumni out in the world is that experience forms lifelong bonds. I mean, there are many people who, out there, who are still very close to the people they went to law school with in their... They work with each other; they refer cases to each other. And so, it's a, it's a really good feature about law school.
And I think Baylor Law School in particular. You work, I think, with the Baylor University pre-law program. Am I right about that?
Jerry
Yes, sir.
Jeremy
What do you do for the, for the pre-law program?
Jerry
Yes sir. So, I, you know, it's kind of in the name of, pre-law advising. And so, a lot of the students, they'll come, they'll have questions about, hey, I think I might want to go to law school, I might want to do this. And so, some of the things that we offer is just kind of like a basic timetable for them, just giving them a roadmap so that they can kind of stick to, and my…
Jeremy
So these are undergraduate students your advising.
Jerry
Yes sir. Yes sir.
Jeremy
Okay.
Jerry
And so, for me, my, my primary mode is that I help, draft resumes and, and then I help edit personal statements and things like that. And so, I was really excited for the job, a fellow classmate of mine, she worked there, and they had an opening. She's like, hey, I think you really like this.
And what I liked was I was able to work with students again. If there's one thing I miss about teaching, it was that sort of mentor aspect of it, getting to talk to the kids and see where they wanted to be, what they wanted to do and offer any sort of help that I could. And it's, it's really interesting because I'll see some of the kids that come over there.
I say kids, they're same age as my classmates, but I see some of the students over there, and they just kind of look lost. And what feels really good afterwards is whenever they look like, oh, I can do this. And it's a cool feeling. You hear some great stories. And then one of my favorite things is reading the personal statements because I get to know them. I get to see what they actually care about. I can tell whenever they're not being 100% truthful. And that's the biggest thing I try to bring out of them. I'm like, you don't have to say buzzwords. I just need you to tell me a true story. And so, whenever they do, it's a, it's an amazing thing to see and see them light up.
And then I'm like, see, you can do this. And you know, that validation that I, that was great for me being here, here in the staff here, I'm able to do it for them as well. It's been awesome.
Jeremy
The unvarnished truth is compelling.
Jerry
Yes.
Jeremy
That's, that's sometimes it's hard to, to recognize that when we're, we grow up thinking lawyers are one thing and we're actually something, something different. So, tell me, you’re second year. So plenty of time to figure this out. Do you know what you want to do with your law degree?
Jerry
I'm still. I'm still kind of going between two things. I know that right out of law school, my ultimate goal is a clerkship. I just feel like that's the best job.
Jeremy
with a court.
Jerry
Yes, sir. I, I feel, I feel like that…
Jeremy
I know, you know, that I, I make sure everybody else knows that.
Jerry
Yeah. That, that, to me, that just seems like the best job you can have right out of law school. You get to see how the sausage gets made in a lot of ways. And I, I can't think of a better job right out of law school, but, big picture. I love constitutional law. I'm still trying to figure out how to make that a viable, viable living.
I've talked with some other professors. They've talked about, like, administrative law or something, or obviously criminal route. The other thing that I'm really interested in is construction law. And so, right before I transitioned to law school, I took a job with an asphalt company, so I could work through the summer, make some extra cash, and, I never would have thought in a million years I would have been interested in it, but it was…
I had opportunity to review contracts to, attend seminars about the various issues that subcontractors go through in just getting payments. So, the really, labyrinthine, lien system that Texas imposes on them just so these people can get their money and stuff. And it was, I remember reading this, it was a, it was reading just basically the complaint that somebody wrote there, and I was like, I never would have thought I was excited about that.
But the issues that were kind of nestled inside there about this - I don't, it was it was so complex, but it was something I thought, not only is this interesting, but as Texas is continuing just to build everywhere that there's a blade of grass, I feel like it's going to be something that's needed going forward, to have these types of attorneys that can help those people out.
Jeremy
All great options, all great options. You'd be good at all of them. We have now come, Jerry, to the Lightning round Okay. Your answers must be short. What's your go to late night study snack during exams?
Jerry
Nerds, nerd gummies.
Jeremy
Oh, Jerry. That's disappointing. If you could swap roles with any Baylor Law School staff or faculty member for a day, who would it be?
Jerry
Probably the CIV Pro professor. Yeah.
Jeremy
That's a, that's a great choice. That makes up for the nerdy, nerd gummies. I was, what's, random fact, you know, that surprises most people when you share it?
Jerry
That it is not, in fact, illegal to ride around the car with the dome light on.
Jeremy
All right, I'll put a research assistant on that. If you could have any animal as a safely domesticated pet. Not a dog, not a goldfish or a cat, what would you choose?
Jerry
Llama.
Jeremy
Not bad. Napoleon Dynamite?
Jerry
Yes.
Jeremy
What's a spot in Waco you wish others knew about? Like, maybe a little place you go to.
Jerry
I'm sure they do know about it, but, No, sorry . Cameron Park, right by the river. I love walking there. I'm sure they do know.
Jeremy
What a great place. What's the most impulsive purchase you've ever made?
Jerry
Oh, Paintball gun.
Jeremy
That's a good one, too. That actually requires reflection. Gotta get the right one. It's important. What's a song that gets stuck in your head?
Jerry
Oh, Rainy Day Woman by Waylon Jennings.
Jeremy
Good answer. If you could teleport to one place on Earth daily for lunch, where would it be?
Jerry
Sicily. I don't know.
Jeremy
Yeah. You're like, you're like the Family Feud contestant who got zero points on the first question, but then. But then just racked up the points on the remaining questions. Good stuff, Jerry. Okay, I understand you may have some questions for me.
Jerry
Yes, sir. First one I had was, if you had never entered the legal profession, what do you think your career would have been?
Jeremy
History teacher was one I thought about that, because I like history too. I think I've always been drawn to teaching. I've always, whenever, throughout my education, whether it was middle school or high school or college or law school, I always thought that must be a pretty neat job to be able to, to teach. And then history was something I was interested in, so you kind of put two and two together. The other job and this, this is something that when I was in law school, I studied at a truck stop. I would, you know, eat there and study there and let me stay. You know, they refilled my coffee all the time, and these long-haul truck drivers would come in there and I'd, you know, strike up conversations with them.
And I thought, man, it must be great to be a long-haul truck driver. You know, you drive the truck, you're alone with your thoughts and your music and you, you get the load where it's supposed to go, and it's done. You don't have to think about it anymore. And I remember actually, there was a truck driver who was eating at the booth next to me, and he said, what are you doing there?
And I told him what I was doing, studying for law school and I told him, I said, I envy the long-haul truck drivers. And I told them that thing I just told you. And he goes, kid, stay in law school. So that was the other thing that I thought about, about doing.
Jerry
Yeah, my dad was a long-haul truck driver. It’s funny that you say that. Absolutely.
Jeremy
And I thought about the military as well when I was in high school. I thought about joining the military out of high school. So, you and I have thought about many of the same kind of options. And, my dad wasn't a long-haul truck driver, but, you know, I think we come from kind of a similar background. And I thought about some of those, those same options along the way.
Jerry
Yes, sir. I did have one more question. What was the best professional or personal bit of wisdom that you got during your clerkship?
Jeremy
So, I clerked for Judge Renaldo Garza on the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. I think your aspiration to be a clerk afterwards is just a fantastic one. You know, typically those are, as you know, one-year jobs. It's never going to be the highest paying job you could get right out of law school, but it's for one year.
And the benefits it gives you over time are just incredible. You become like a child to that judge. My judge has passed away since I clerked. But I actually asked him, we were at dinner with him one time, and I and my co-clerk and I were with him, and I cannot remember if I asked the question or if my co-clerk asked the question.
My friend Julian, and I think it was Julian. And he asked, judge, what's you know, we're a couple young lawyers, you know, about to get started. What advice would you give to young lawyers as they're starting out? And he said, love your spouse and love God. That was his advice. And that has always, kind of stuck with me as a kind of a way to anchor myself in terms of what matters, even as we might think we have sort of important or high powered careers, or the potential for one, as lawyers that it really, that's advice that's common, I think, that he would give to anybody, you know, regardless of what their career path was or their, their job was. And I have, I've never forgotten that. And sometimes students will ask me, you know, what's the bit of advice? And I'll tell them, this is what was told to me. And I can always tell a lot of times they're disappointed with that advice. Like they wanted something far more specific, like, man, I need something I can monetize rapidly.
But, but I think that's something, you know. And, at the moment when he said that, I think I was kind of like, yeah, come on, give me something more specific. Give me something that I can actually take advantage of. But those are, those are the things that, to me, keep all the other stuff in appropriate perspective because, you know, if at the end of your career, even if you have a really successful career day to day, there are ups and downs, there are frustrations, there are victories.
There are, you know, endless things that are rather mundane. But all of that is kept in the proper perspective if you remember your why and your first principle. So, for, for me, those are, those are the things that I think to, to, you know, maintain your, your, your, your life in a, in a decent place. And it's hard. But you know. Jerry, this was great. Thank you so much. Appreciate you.
Jerry
Thank you sir. Appreciate it.
