Caroline Bizarro Discusses Writing, Advocacy, and Resilience
Caroline Bizarro Discusses Writing, Advocacy, and Resilience
This episode of Counseller’s Corner features a lively conversation between Dean Jeremy Counseller and third-year Baylor Law School student Caroline Bizarro. Caroline shares what drew her to advocacy, how her experience relaunching the Baylor Undergraduate Law Review shaped her approach to legal writing, and why grit may be the most underrated skill in the legal profession. From moot court strategy to the realities of law school resilience, this conversation is a thoughtful examination of what it takes to grow from an eager 1L to a confident future lawyer.
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TRANSCRIPT
Jeremy
This is Jeremy Counseller, Dean of Baylor Law School. Welcome to another edition of Counseller’s Corner. And I'm pleased to be joined today by Caroline Bizarro. Caroline, how far along in law school are you now?
Caroline
I actually just started my third year.
Jeremy
Your third year. Okay, so what's going on in law school for you right now? What courses are you taking?
Caroline
Right now, I'm doing a lot of advocacy stuff. I'm taking ADR, ALR, the legal writing class advanced legal writing, alternative dispute resolution. And then I'm taking business torts and, yeah, I think that's pretty much it.
Jeremy
Have you taken practice court yet? Or it's still to come?
Caroline
It's still to come.
Jeremy
Okay.
Caroline
I'll do spring / summer. Yes.
Jeremy
Okay. So, you went to Baylor as an undergrad and now Baylor Law School.
Caroline
Yes.
Jeremy
How was that? Did you come straight from undergrad to law school?
Caroline
I had about a year in between.
Jeremy
Okay. What did you do during that year?
Caroline
I clerked at a law firm in Houston and just did some drafting for them.
Jeremy
So, what was the transition like from undergraduate to law school? Like what are the main differences? If you had a, someone you knew who was at Baylor undergrad and you had to say, here's how it's different. What would you say?
Caroline
It's just a lot more involved. I like to tell my friends who are still at Baylor in undergrad that you just have to kind of sell out to it for the entire amount of time and just be prepared for the fact that it's going to be a lot of work, but it's really fun. It's more fulfilling, I think, than my time in undergrad, but…
Jeremy
How so? How more fulfilling?
Caroline
I, I just really like the work that I'm doing. I like, especially the advocacy stuff that I do. It's, there are more opportunities to do those things in law school. And it's on a bigger stage. So, it's just more fulfilling to do more complicated work, at least for me.
Jeremy
So, let's talk about the advocacy stuff that you've done. You've been on a lot of teams, I think both moot court and mock trial.
Caroline
Yes.
Jeremy
Okay. So, for those who don't know, what's the difference between moot court and mock trial?
Caroline
So moot court is appellate advocacy, and mock trial is trial advocacy. So appellate advocacy being, you know, no jury. There's a panel of judges, justices who interrupt you and ask you questions during an allotted amount of time. And then mock trial is there's jury and a judge and there's openings and closings and examinations. But none of those things exist in a moot court setting.
Really just appellate work is questions of law and settling those things. And then trial work is, you know, convincing the jury of which side to believe.
Jeremy
Yeah. What do you find challenging about moot court versus mock trial? Like what are the unique challenges of those things?
Caroline
The unique challenges of moot court, which I've done more of is really just distilling it down into a way that is going to be clear. Some of the best advice I've ever gotten is that you win appellate rounds, moot court rounds, by being clearer than the other side, so long as you can distill it in a way that you can describe it to somebody who's not in the law. Then, a judge who may or may not have read the actual record by that point will understand what you're, what you're saying. Yeah.
Jeremy
It's a lot like teaching in that way. I think, moot court or appellate argument is a lot like teaching. You've got to be simple. Make the complex simple.
Caroline
Yes. I think Einstein said that.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Caroline
Was it Einstein?
Jeremy
I don't know, but I, I said it. So, it should count for something, I guess. Okay. This, this kind of was very interesting to me. You founded the Baylor Undergraduate Law Review. Why would you do such a thing?
Caroline
Well, when I was an undergrad, a friend of mine approached me, and, basically, the undergrad law review was already in existence, but it was dead, and nobody was doing anything with it. And we were kind of, just decided that we could make something of it. And so, we, from the ground up, just kind of built the whole program.
And it was because I knew even by that point that legal writing was the most important thing in law school, that if you can get that down pat, then everything else really will kind of follow. And so that was a huge motivator. That was what we said to people to get them involved. And we went from having zero members right when we started to, in the same semester, having I think something like 40, all committed to publishing this journal at the end of the year.
Jeremy
So, what sort of pieces does it publish? Is it student authored pieces?
Caroline
Yes, it is. It's all student authored pieces. I think even now there's about, they publish about 7 or 8. They are more, you know, in an undergrad setting, more, policy related. However, they still touch on legal, legal areas. That's kind of the premise of the whole thing.
Jeremy
Did you write and publish an article?
Caroline
I did. Yes.
Jeremy
What was it about?
Caroline
It was about zoning regulations in, I used Cleveland, Ohio as a case study and, and really it was about how some decisions from the U.S. Supreme courts have created zoning issues that have created disparities among wealth. And it was also about what kind of scrutiny and constitutional scrutiny should apply to wealth discrimination in that specific circumstance?
Jeremy
That's really impressive. Yeah. That's cool.
Caroline
Thanks.
Jeremy
As an undergrad, it's also kind of nerdy.
Caroline
Yeah. It was. Took a lot of time.
Jeremy
Yeah, it's kind of nerdy.
Caroline
It took a lot of time, but I, whenever I was running that law review, I would tell people when selecting a topic since it's more policy based in the undergrad setting...
Jeremy
Yeah.
Caroline
They should think about the things that have interested them or not sat right with them during their time in undergrad and write on something like that.
Jeremy
Yeah. So, I want to turn back to the, the advocacy piece, because you have done a lot of it. How do you think that is preparing you? Because there's obviously a competition aspect of it. When we go to competition, we want to win, but the main thing is we want to make sure it helps you in practice and for the rest of your career.
And I'm wondering what your thoughts are on how effectively it does that from, from the vantage point you're in right now as a third-year law student?
Caroline
I think it's, well for me and I'm biased because I like advocacy things. But I think it prepares you better than having not done advocacy. Far better than having just written things and just knowing how to write about the law on paper. Being able to go into a partner's office and explain a concept, just to be able to ask a question is very important.
Over my summers, I've realized that, that's, that's an important skill. And the advocacy things have helped me kind of distill those concepts into words so that I'm clear, I'm not confusing, and I'm not frustrating anybody by being caught up in the weeds.
Jeremy
Yeah. So, you've got all this advocacy experience under your belt, and you haven't yet taken practice court. So, I'm wondering when is that going to happen and what do you hope to get from our practice court program?
Caroline
Yeah. So, I'll take practice court in the spring and summer. I started in the spring. So, that was kind of the timeline that is most appropriate. And I'm hoping to just really, you know, sharpen my skills and also learn those discrete areas of the law that you don't get to learn in the first couple of years in law school here, or, in many cases in any law school.
Baylor teaches you some very detailed parts of the law in practice court that I'm interested in knowing about.
Jeremy
I'm biased because I taught in the program and because I'm the Dean of the law school. The program is offered, but it is the best training ground for practical lawyering in the country, in my opinion, because one of the things, just one example of what it does, you know, a lot of law students maybe, I think most law students, take evidence, but all law students take an evidence course here.
But it's not just in the book. You go do it in a in a courtroom. And it's that combination of doctrine and practice that is really; it's the synergy that makes the program go. And you are going to learn a ton about trial advocacy. And in practice court, you're going to; you're going to drink it up and be incredibly benefited from it.
So, looking ahead, I mean, you're a year away from being out and practicing law. What are your plans? What are your hopes?
Caroline
I have been kind of deciding whether I want to do the appellate route or the trial route. That kind of determines where I'm going to go after, I've been looking at clerkships for after, but...
Jeremy
A judicial clerkship?
Caroline
Yes, but have been kind of leaning more towards trial practice. I've always wanted to do appellate work, but really just enjoy the trial work.
And since I've only done one competition but really enjoyed, yeah, that kind of work.
Jeremy
Well, I did an appellate judicial clerkship, but not a whole lot of appellate work. And so, I think it, it translates into the trial practice pretty well.
Caroline
I think so, too. You got to if you know the law better. I've explained it to my mom this way. If you know the law better, you're going to beat the other guy, you know? Yeah, the guy on the other side.
Jeremy
Hopefully. Hopefully. That's true. Okay. We have now come to the lightning round. I have to pause there Caroline, because they insert a thunderclap right there. Then we don't want to talk over the thunderclap. Okay, here we go. Do you have a hidden talent? And if so, what is it?
Caroline
Oh, my goodness. I don't know if I have a hidden talent. I might have to pass on that one.
Jeremy
Okay. What's the last book you read for fun?
Caroline
Brave New World by Aldous Huxley.
Jeremy
Does pineapple belong on pizza?
Caroline
It can.
Jeremy
All right; I'm going to accept that because you've, you've, you've told me you're Italian. So, I think that has to control. What was your favorite movie as a kid?
Caroline
As a kid, I really like The Little Prince. It's a book. It's a French book. But they adapted into a movie. It's very good, even as an adult.
Jeremy
Okay, the best way to eat a potato ?
Caroline
Mashed.
Jeremy
What's your favorite brand of energy drink?
Caroline
Probably Alani, but I don't really drink energy drinks.
Jeremy
That second part is the correct answer. Text or call?
Caroline
Probably text if you're busy.
Jeremy
Favorite fast-food restaurant?
Caroline
I like Chick-Fil-a a lot.
Jeremy
What meal do you make for yourself the most?
Caroline
I make sausage and peppers actually, very frequently. I made it the other night, but it was a meal we had growing up. It's basically like a white roll with Italian sausage, peppers, marinara and onions. And that's kind of it, mozzarella.
Jeremy
It's delicious.
Caroline
Very good.
Jeremy
I applaud you for that choice. There is a box in front of you. What's inside it?
Caroline
I'm not sure. Maybe. Probably a book of some kind.
Jeremy
Is a hotdog a sandwich?
Caroline
No.
Jeremy
Would you ever go on an outdoor survival competition show like Survivor?
Caroline
I think I could do it, yes.
Jeremy
What Olympic sport would you compete in?
Caroline
I would probably - sand volleyball. That's my favorite one to watch.
Jeremy
Favorite song?
Caroline
Oh, man. I like “Sailing” by Christopher Cross.
Jeremy
That's a good answer.
Caroline
Really.
Jeremy
It is hard not to like that song. Yeah, it is really hard not to like that song. I've hit my yacht rock...
Caroline
Yeah.
Jeremy
phase,
Caroline
So, have I.
Jeremy
which is. I'm, I'm like, a stereotype, you know, a 50 something guy would listen to yacht rock all the time, but that's like my new favorite pastime.
Caroline
Yeah.
Jeremy
yacht rock. And, and I cook while listen to yacht rock.
Caroline
Yes. Me too.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Caroline
I have a very extensive playlist called yacht rock. It's like 12 or 13 hours long.
Jeremy
I tell Alexa, ‘Play yacht rock’, and Chris Cross’ “Sailing” is like one of the first 3 or 4 songs.
Caroline
Yeah.
Jeremy
She'll play it for you.
Caroline
And then like the Doobie Brothers.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Caroline
a lot of that.
Jeremy
Absolutely. The Doobie Brothers. Okay, I understand you may have a question for, for me.
Caroline
Yeah. So, you have spent years shaping how Baylor lawyers think about advocacy and professionalism over that time. I'm curious whether the attributes that make you think, you know, this student is going to be a great lawyer, whether those have changed and if so, how does that evolution kind of change the way you approach teaching students now?
Jeremy
That is a really good question.
I, I think one thing I have to admit is that I'm probably not great at predicting, like, you see someone in, you know, as a student, you say, well, they're going to be a tremendous success. I'm not good at that. And I don't think I need to be, you know, I think, I think it's okay if I just do the best I can with the students I have, and, and I'm really proud of what our students go out and do.
I mean, they, they do a lot of different things. But I will say their careers don't always take the path that they thought they would. I mean, there are other opportunities out there, right? And you, you take advantage of them as you go. But I do think there's one characteristic that's really, really important and that's grit. You know, just resilience.
Caroline
Yeah.
Jeremy
That to me is one of the most important characteristics because the, the legal profession and I say this to students a lot, it's a rich and rewarding career, but it's not easy. There are easier ways to get rich than becoming a lawyer.
Caroline
Yes. Yeah.
Jeremy
And, you have to have resilience. You've got to have that grit. And I think one of the things, if I may say so, that Baylor Law School does really well, is provide students that opportunity to demonstrate resilience and grit.
Caroline
I think that's very true.
Jeremy
Yeah. I mean, you think about what you've gone through, where you've got a full slate of courses and then someone says to you, hey, we want you to be on a moot court team, and now you've got something else that's also important and also time-consuming. The, the reward for good hard work is more good hard work.
Caroline
Yes. Yeah.
Jeremy
You know and so, to be able to, I mean you think about time management and all that, all that's important. But sometimes you put in all that work and you go to the moot court competition and you don't get the outcome you want. And you have to dust yourself off and then you say, I'll do another one.
That kind of resilience is really, really, really important in a, in a lawyer. And, you know, there are other important attributes, but I think that one is, is really an important one. And I think I've, it's a question I sometimes ask other lawyers, people who are mentors to me, what's the most important characteristic of a lawyer, or what were the three most important characteristics of a lawyer?
And so many of them, especially those who've been in the practice of law or who've been a judge for, you know, a while, will put resilience in there. And so, I'm looking for that characteristic in students. Are you resilient? Can you, can you take a licking and keep on ticking? I think that's, that's important because, yeah, all of us are going to take a licking in the profession at some point or another, probably at multiple points.
And so, we got to keep on ticking because there's a lot of good stuff to do. There's a lot of help we can bring, but there's something inherent in people coming to you and saying, I have this problem or this challenge.
Caroline
Yeah.
Jeremy
And they hand it to you and that's, that's difficult. You’ve got to be able to carry that weight and the pressure that comes with it, and it just takes resilience.
So that's something I, I look for in students.
Caroline
I think, if I may say, to any potential students listening, I think for me, at least my first year, it took a lot of grit to, to do the classes because, the classes are very hard. But I started finding more and more success in my second and third years once I got even more comfortable, even with grades improved and, lots of things improved, and that it takes a lot of grit just to even believe that you can do more than what you've already done.
Jeremy
That’s right.
Caroline
And so, I think it's really important in that first year, which is really grueling, to continue to work, continue to get better and better because all the ground you cover is ground you won't have to cover again, or at least as in-depth. And so, that's how I've thought of the whole thing. And, and grit is very, very important to me at least as well.
Jeremy
Yeah, I, I completely agree with that. And I will say. The experience you just described - grades are important in law school, no doubt. But I think that decision to say I'm going to, I'm going to keep going. Yeah, I'm just going to endure this. I'm going to benefit from this. I'm going to, I'm going to show resilience. That characteristic will pay bigger dividends over the long term than an A-minus versus a B or A minus versus an A.
I mean, those characteristics are what are going to carry you through. I meet lawyers all the time who tell me, and candidly part of my job is fundraising. And I'm meeting these people because they are successful, and they're interested in giving money to the law school. And there's, they so often, they will tell me, well, I wasn't a great law student. But you've been a really great lawyer.
Caroline
Right.
Jeremy
You know, you've been a really great lawyer, and you've had a lot of success. So, I think those things are important. And I think, you know, that one of the things I'm so proud of our law students is that we know, we the faculty are well aware of how difficult this is. But what we're proud of is the students are like yeah, but I'm here for it.
Caroline
Right.
Jeremy
You know, and keep on, keep on going.
Caroline
Yeah.
Jeremy
And that's just great to see. I see students at the beginning of law school. They're so eager. You're so eager.
Caroline
Yeah.
Jeremy
And then over time, it turns into resolve.
Caroline
Right.
Jeremy
You know, sort of taking a longer look at things and just resolve. And I think that's an important transformation.
Caroline
That's a very good word to use for it, because, yes, at a certain point, the excitement turns into less just excitement and more I still want to do this. And you continue. You just know that in your heart of hearts that you still want to do it, no matter what it takes.
Jeremy
That's the thing you can build a career on. Excitement is not something you can build a career on.
Caroline
No.
Jeremy
You can't maintain it. But if it's resolve,
Caroline
Yeah.
Jeremy
And I want to do, I have things I want to achieve for myself, for my clients, for the community I serve. Resolve will let you do those things. Excitement that you feel when you come to law school in the first week or two, I don't know that that's going to sustain you.
Caroline
I don't know if you can, you can finish Baylor Law School without developing that characteristic. I think it's necessary.
Jeremy
I certainly hope that's true.
Caroline
Yeah.
Jeremy
So Caroline, it’s been great. Thanks for chatting with me.
Caroline
Thank you. Thanks for chatting with me.
