A New Stage, A New Calling: Joey Goodale on Finding His Voice at Baylor Law School
Counseller's Corner - Season 3, Episode 4:
What do opera and oral advocacy have in common? For Baylor Law School student Joey Goodale, the connection is stronger than one might expect. After studying music at Dallas Baptist University and earning a master’s degree in voice from Southern Methodist University, Goodale performed with Opera Colorado and the Glimmerglass Festival before reconsidering a career that would require years of extensive travel. His longstanding interest in the legal profession eventually brought him to Baylor Law School, where his experience as a performer has proven unexpectedly beneficial.
In this episode of Counseller’s Corner, Dean Jeremy Counseller speaks with Goodale about his transition from professional music to legal education, managing performance anxiety, and exploring the similarities between preparing for a stage performance and presenting an argument in court.
Goodale also discusses the challenges he faced as a first-generation law student and the importance of connecting with practicing attorneys through Baylor Law’s professional development programs. He reflects on reaching the semifinals of Baylor Law School’s Durham Pittard Spalding Kaufman & Hollingsworth Fall Moot Court Competition, earning a Top 10 Speaker award, and his growing interest in civil litigation and appellate advocacy. Outside the classroom, Goodale continues to share his musical background through a student vocal quartet, Voices of Baylor Law. From the discipline of classical performance to the demands of legal advocacy, his conversation with Dean Counseller offers an engaging perspective on the diverse experiences and interests that students bring to Baylor Law School.
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TRANSCRIPT
Jeremy
Hi, and welcome to another edition of Counseller’s Corner. I’m Jeremy Counseller, Dean of Baylor Law School. And I am very happy to be joined today by first year law student. Excuse me. Yes. You're still in your first year. Just barely. Joey Goodale. Joey, thanks for being here. How are you doing?
Joey
I'm doing great. Excited to be here.
Jeremy
Oh, good. Well, that helps if you're excited to be here. So, something that I want to talk to you about is your musical background. So, you went to Dallas Baptist University?
Joey
Yes.
Jeremy
Studied music there. And then tell me what you did after you got your degree from Dallas Baptist.
Joey
So, in my time at DBU, I figured out I really loved performance and I love classical music.
And so, I had a strong desire to go pursue opera. That was kind of what I sang when I was a kid in like, kids choirs. And so, after DBU, I went and got a master's in voice at Southern Methodist University. After my masters, did a residency in Colorado, in Denver for Opera Colorado. I did a festival in upstate New York called the Glimmerglass Festival.
And then after that, did another year for about, it's called the performers diploma. Just sort of hone in on some techniques stuff and kind of see where I was at with the career, the professional side of the, the music business. And it was in that period that I figured out, oh, I don't want to do this professionally for the rest of my life just because it was a lot of time on the road.
I was getting married around the same time, and I had spent about 11 months on a gig long distance, and was looking at another 5 to 10 years of doing that sort of stretch and didn't want to do that.
Jeremy
Okay, so it's one thing to say, I don't want to be a professional opera singer, professional singer. It's another thing to go, I'm going to go to law school.
Therefore, I'm going to go to law school. So how do you square that? That circle?
Joey
Yeah, that's a good question. I loved working with people. That was one of the big things I got to do in music. It was a really diverse group of characters and personalities every single day. And I love doing really complex work that I thought mattered.
You know, when you're doing music, you're feeding the soul of the audience. Pair that to the legal side. I always had an interest in,in law school, in the legal career, get to work with people, and it's work that matters. And you're dealing with the fabric of how we move and work in our society. And so, at any level, that was really fascinating to me and something that was really enticing to me.
Jeremy
Is there any part of your training, as your opera training, your, your education at Dallas Baptist and Southern Methodist University; is there any part of that that you have found helpful to you in law school? Because I would imagine performance can be it's, it's, it's own stressor.
Joey
Yeah, yeah. Performance has a … I've always dealt with some level of stage, stage fright, or performance anxiety. The skill that I think I picked up was learning to be okay with it and learning to like, step out in front of people and execute what you've prepared.
Jeremy
Yeah, I think we call that courage.
Joey
They say courage a lot, you know, in music.
And it feels like courage because I don't really know what's going to come out of my mouth all the time.
Jeremy
Yeah, you're stressed or you're scared and you do the thing. You do the thing anyway. That's, that's courage. That's great. I understand you have a big milestone coming up in October. Tell us what that is.
Joey
Coming up on.
Jeremy
Hopefully you and I are thinking about the same milestone.
Joey
Well…
Jeremy
It's a personal milestone .
Joey
Yes.
Jeremy
Not a professional milestone.
Joey
My wife and I will be three years married next Wednesday.
Jeremy
And what are you going to do to celebrate this, study? Are you going to stay?
Joey
Obviously I’ll study.
Jeremy
It's not a trick question.
Joey
We'll go out to dinner.
Jeremy
Okay.
Joey
We'll go out to dinner.
We're taking the weekend at an AirBnB.
Jeremy
Oh nice!
Joey
Kind of get away for a little bit.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Joey
Read a book that isn't a, a case book for maybe an hour.
Jeremy
Okay. That's great. Well, congratulations to you and your wife, because I know as you go through law school, she is. She's along for the ride. Yeah, she's along for the ride. For sure.
One of the things that is true about you is you're a first-generation law student. And you've, you've said that you like to get a lot of experience when we bring lawyers in to talk about a practice area in our professional development program. What challenges do you think maybe you have had to overcome as someone who doesn't have lawyers in his family?
And how have those programs helped you where we have lawyers come and speak to our students?
Joey
Yeah, I think, I mean institutional knowledge of the, of the field is kind of the biggest thing that, that feels like a barrier to me, where there was no one behind my shoulder sort of saying, hey, this is actually how this works.
Or no, you probably shouldn't think that way. This is what's really going on. And so, anything to where I can talk to an actual attorney and that's practicing…
Jeremy
Not these fake attorneys, not these fake faculty, faculty. Yeah.
Joey
But that that experience, that information. Just chatting with them afterwards after the event is so valuable, at least personally to me.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Joey
Because it also helps me have a level of confidence, going into, you know, job interviews for internships, thinking about what type of career do I want to have five years after I graduate, ten years after I graduate. What city? I mean, I'm trying to move back to Dallas, and so the city I'm going to be and all of that is really informative to me.
Jeremy
You know, the legal profession is so broad. If someone tells you I'm a lawyer, they really haven't told you much of anything at all about what they actually do on a day-to-day basis. And so, bringing in lawyers from different practice areas, I think, is important for all students, just for them to see the breadth of the profession and everything that they're able to, to do, you know, what potentially do with their, their law degree.
You, and this is something that I really like. You and several other law students have formed, I think it's a quartet, a vocal quartet. Do you, what is the official name, to the extent there is an official name, of this quartet?
Joey
I think we were named Voices of Baylor Law. It looks like it just appeared on a program.
Jeremy
Yeah, you, you might want to amend that. You're free to amend that and name it something else if you want to. But talk about the things that you guys have done because it is a male quartet.
Joey
Sure. Yeah. I mean, you have your devotional that you do once a month. And so, in the spring quarter, I was talking with another guy.
And we both have musical backgrounds, and he knew a couple other singers that were students as well. And we threw it to, I think, Jamarcus on staff, which then ran it through you. And the idea sounded cool. And it's like, hey, we want to bring this side of our lives in music into what we do here in our academic career.
Jeremy
And y'all are really good, I should say. Y'all are really, really, really, really good. And, have really added some richness to the life of the law school around here.
Joey
I'm glad.
Jeremy
Okay, let's shift gears a little bit. You recently competed in the law school fall court competition. That's a point at which we're, you're, you were coming to the, you're in the end of your first year because of our three different entering classes. You're at the end of your first year. Talk about what you took from that experience in the moot court competition.
Joey
Yeah, I really enjoyed all of it. We didn't quite make the finals. Just missed out.
Jeremy
But you, you got, you,,,
Joey
Semi, semifinals.
Jeremy
Okay. I knew you'd done very well in it, but I because I was at the award ceremony, but I, I didn't remember exactly where the journey ended.
Joey
So, we made it to the semifinals. The, the whole process of really digging into kind of one legal concept and figuring out both sides of it. That's a fun puzzle for me to solve. And then the, the pressure or, I don't know, I get a little bit of an adrenaline rush. Yeah. Going up and talking in front of people and so, you know, arguing for your side and then turning around the next day and arguing the other side.
That's, and being successful in doing it too is, is a blast. Really enjoyed it to the point where I'm considering appellate work as a potential field, something I, I'm interested in at the very least.
Jeremy
Yeah. You know, I remember, you know, the thing you just said, I've got to be the petitioner today, and then tomorrow the respondent and the next day might be the petitioner or vice versa.
And did you ever have that fear that you were going to argue the wrong side of the case when you got up to the podium?
Joey
Oh, yeah. I, I put in bold letters at the top of my notes since like petitioner reverse, respondent affirm.
Jeremy
Yeah. It never actually happened to me in law school where I argued the wrong side, but it was a constant kind of anxiety that like, all of a sudden, to be making the argument for the other side on this particular point.
Joey
Yeah.
Jeremy
Yeah. Because that's what you're going to do later that afternoon, or that's what you're going to do the next day. But I think that is a hallmark of legal education in the mind of a lawyer, is that you can hold competing arguments in your brain at the same time and make a really compelling case for, for both sides.
And I also think moot, the moot court competition we have coming at the end of the year. That's when everything hopefully starts to come together. It's not just the doctrine; it's also the advocacy skills that come into play as well. And a lot of students, I think, have the same experience you did. They might be nervous about standing up in front of their the more, the upper class upperclassmen and women or having faculty judge their round, but most of them, after they get through that, if they take that brave step, they're like, this is kind of fun.
There is an adrenaline rush behind this. Yeah. And am I remembering correctly that you did you receive an individual award as well?
Joey
Yeah, I got a top ten speaker award.
Jeremy
Very good, very good. Well, I'm glad you said yes, because I would have had to send you one if you'd said no. I felt bad about that. Okay.
This upcoming summer. So, summer 27. You, I understand, will be clerking with the firm of Pakis, Giotes, Burleson and Deaconson here in Waco actually. I'm wondering what you're looking forward to about that experience.
Joey
You know, they have a pretty wide practice area. And so, getting to experience, a, a pretty broad swath of just about everything is something I'm really looking forward to. Getting some real practical experience outside of the theory of it especially.
Jeremy
You don't want to stay in Waco though long term is my understanding.
Joey
Yeah. Long term. We want to get back to Dallas.
Jeremy
Yeah. You know. Great. Well, plenty of our students go back to, to Dallas. What do you what do you hope as you get back to Dallas? What do you hope to pursue during the rest of your time here at Baylor Law School?
What do you hope? Because you've got two more years. I'm wondering what you're looking forward to, what you're looking to, how you're looking to develop in the last couple of years of law school?
Joey
Yeah, yeah. I'm really, I'm not sure if I mentioned earlier. I'm very interested in civil litigation. And more and more the civil defense side.
And so, getting to experience different parts of that with, I mean, everybody does practice court. And so, you get your, your chance to dip your toe in that. But moot court teams will be trying out for a team. Honestly, really building relationships to carry with me I think is probably the, the biggest thing that I can take from this time moving forward.
Jeremy
Have you found that, obviously all the law students are really busy. You've got a life outside of law school. You, you have a, you have a wife, you've got, in a deep interest in music. And heck, you're even going to read a book pretty soon, at least for an hour or so. Have you managed to find time to connect with people, to have relationships with people you've met in law school?
Joey
Yeah, yeah, I think I have. It's funny, my wife has also become good friends with some of the girls in my cohort. You know, I'm a spring starter. And so, our cohort’s a little bit smaller, which I think has lended to the ability for us to get to know each other better. Yeah. You know, it's easier to go out to, you know, dinner at the end of the day or at the end of a week, or during a break and, and just hang out.
You know, talk about, talk about school stuff and that's, that's obviously a part of it, but also talk about each other's lives and be friends.
Jeremy
Yeah. The friends you make in law school are one of the biggest things you will most important things you will carry forward with you off into the future. So, I'm glad you're, I'm glad you're having that experience.
Okay. We have come to the lightning round where the questions are silly and your answers have to be short. What's a movie you could watch over and over again?
Joey
Harry Potter.
Jeremy
Sweet or salty snack?
Joey
Oh, salty.
Jeremy
What's the last photo in your camera roll? You probably don't have a camera roll. What's the last photo in your photos app?
Joey
Probably a photo of my dog.
Jeremy
Okay. Favorite restaurant in Waco?
Joey
Jorge’s.
Jeremy
Are you more likely to make a spreadsheet or to wing it?
Joey
Wing it.
Jeremy
What is your most random talent?
Joey
Oh, I play the cello.
Jeremy
Oh, nice. That's cool. Window seat or aisle seat?
Joey
Aisle seat.
Jeremy
Absolutely. You're too tall to sit by the window. Which app gets the most screen time on your phone?
Joey
Probably Instagram.
Jeremy
What song are you playing on repeat right now?
Joey
Anything by Fleet Foxes.
Jeremy
What's at the top of your travel bucket list?
Joey
New Zealand.
Jeremy
How many alarms do you set in the morning?
Joey
Three, on two devices.
Jeremy
Why is that?
Joey
Because I'll sleep through it.
Jeremy
If you could be on any game show, which one would you choose?
Joey
Family feud.
Jeremy
Here are your choices. You can know every language or know how to play every musical instrument.
Joey
Every language.
Jeremy
What's your comfort show? Television show version of comfort food.
Joey
The West Wing. l
Jeremy
Okay. Favorite way to celebrate good news?
Joey
Go out to a nice dinner.
Jeremy
What is the superior French fry shape?
Joey
String. Shoestring.
Jeremy
What's one chore you would happily never do again?
Joey
Clean the bathroom.
Jeremy
What's a smell that instantly takes you somewhere else? Sorry to follow that up on the bathroom?
Joey
Chlorine.
Jeremy
Would you rather explore space or the deep ocean?
Joey
Space. The ocean is scary.
Jeremy
Alright. You've passed. You've passed the lightning round, and I understand you may have a question for me.
Joey
Yes. You use a lot of movie illustrations in class.
Jeremy
I do.
Joey
What's your favorite genre of movie?
Jeremy
I guess, I like sci fi. I like drama. I like action movies. I don't know that I have a favorite genre. Something I'm doing right now is I watched a movie that I really liked a while back, actually, called Blue Ruin. And so I told ChatGPT, hey, I really like the movie Blue Ruin. Give me a, give me a, give me ten hidden gem films that are streaming on the streaming services that I have that I should watch, given that I like Blue Ruin and I'm working through that top ten list right now, and they're not all in the same genre.
They are, or at least so far, they haven't, they haven't been there. They are, I would say, quirky, lower budget, maybe a little melancholy. But that's what I'm. That's what I'm going through right now. Yeah.
Joey
Yeah, I might have to steal that. That's a good idea.
Jeremy
Yeah, it is a really. I mean, ChatGPT has its limits, but when it, when there's nothing at stake you know, just you watch a movie you don't care for as much.
And so, when I, when I finish the film, I tell ChatGPT what I thought about it. And it will refine the list based on my feedback. You can even tell it this is what I didn't like about it, and it will tell you. Well, lots of critics didn't care for that aspect of the film either, and it can show you what they said about it.
Joey
That's crazy.
Jeremy
Yeah, it's been fun. Joey, thanks a lot. Appreciate you and are glad to have you here at Baylor Law School.
Joey
Glad to be here. Thanks again.
