From First Responder to Future Lawyer: Nafis Muhammad’s Commitment to Service
Counseller's Corner - Season 3, Episode 2:
Nafis Muhammad, a first-year student at Baylor Law School, has always been drawn to work that protects others. His journey began as a teenager when he became an EMT, followed by his service as a firefighter and paramedic. Inspired by his mother, an emergency room nurse who always helped those in need, Nafis developed a deep appreciation for the various systems and institutions essential for maintaining safety and well-being.
This passion led him from the fire department to the campaign trail, where he ran for city council in his hometown of Carson, California, at just 18 years old. Now, at Baylor Law School, Nafis continues to explore his interests, with a specific focus on securities enforcement and regulation.
In this episode of Counseller’s Corner, Dean Jeremy Counseller interviews Nafis about his transition from first responder to law student. They discuss the lessons he has learned about performing under pressure in law school, as well as their shared interests in music, intramural football, life in Waco, and their mutual appreciation for the word puzzle game, Connections.
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TRANSCRIPT
Jeremy
Hi. Welcome to another edition of Counseller’s Corner. I'm Jeremy Counseller, Dean of Baylor Law School, and today, I'm happy to be joined by second-year law student Nafis Muhammad.
Jeremy
So how are you doing?
Nafis
Second quarter is going well. I found that it's a lot more efficient, which helps because, I mean, like briefing cases, and like readings, those go a lot faster. It's still just as stressful.
Jeremy
But you do get better at it. I mean, you get more efficient at the things you have, you have to do.
So, something that just jumps out about you is your long-time interest. I mean, you're a young man, but nevertheless long-time interest in public safety. My understanding is you became an EMT when you were like a kid.
Nafis
Yeah, I did.
Jeremy
So where does all that come from?
Nafis
So, my mother was an emergency room nurse.
Jeremy
Okay.
Nafis
And she worked in, as a nurse. And just in that realm for like, a really long time. And I grew up watching her pull over the car and respond to like car accidents or like, one time we were at home, there was a car accident, like, on our street that was kind of bad. And like, she just runs out the house in her pajamas, and, like, I think seeing her respond to those things from a really young age kind of instilled in me the desire to help other people.
And it was really inspirational to see, like when you have the knowledge and the skills to help somebody.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Nafis
You just kind of do. I, I never saw her hesitate to, to help somebody. And so, when I was young, and she also thought like, because she was a medical field, it was really important for us to have like some degree of medical knowledge.
Like, that's her big proponent. Like, everybody should be a little bit more knowledgeable about, like, emergency medicine. So, I had like my CPR card when I was like really, really young. And then after that, like I got my EMT and I just kind of continued all the way up until I got my paramedic once I was an adult.
Jeremy
God bless the helpers. And not only people who want to help, but who can help, who have the skills, the training, experience to help. And I'd like to think that lawyers are helpers too or at least can be. Does that have anything to do - your interest in public safety - your mother's inspiration? How does that connect to going to law school for you?
Nafis
For me? So, I volunteered with the fire department when I was, like, in high school, when I first was, like, middle of my freshman year I think. And I really just kind of thought that that's the direction I was going to go. And I originally, I ended up becoming an actual firefighter and paramedic and stuff like that, and I thought that I was going to kind of continue on that path.
But I feel like that experience allowed me to see, like from a national sense, like how different incidents are handled, how different infrastructures hold up communities, and when those infrastructures fail, how they can harm communities or leave them unprotected. And that's what kind of led me to wanting to become a lawyer. It was always kind of in the back of my mind because I did like, like reading philosophy and that sort of thing, but it was really seeing how all of those infrastructures and all of those systems come together to protect our, our country, our communities, and how when those systems aren't regulated or there's not there's no enforcement, it can really harm communities and things like that.
Jeremy
Man, have I got a television show for you?
Nafis
Which one is it?
Jeremy
The Wire.
Nafis
Oh, yeah. That's a great show.
Jeremy
Have you seen it?
Nafis
Yeah.
Jeremy
It's all about systems. Yeah, yeah. I was like, surely, he has seen this show. Surely.
Nafis
I have seen The Wire. Yeah.
Jeremy
The Wire is all about systems and how it can chew people up and spit them out.
Nafis
Right.
Jeremy
And, yeah, it's, it's the greatest television show of all time, by the way.
Nafis
It’s a very good television show.
Jeremy
Okay. No, it's the greatest. Not very good. Okay. You, you’ve played track. You've played football.
Nafis
Yeah.
Jeremy
Are sports still part of your life? Either as an athlete or a fan or both?
Nafis
Sports are a really big part of my life. I'm on the, I am on the football team here, although…
Jeremy
Intramural.
Nafis
Intramural football team right now, although our team isn't doing that great this, this quarter.
Jeremy
What position do you play?
Nafis
I usually play defense. I'm tall, so it's kind of hard for people to catch the ball over me. So, I usually, I usually stay on the defensive side or play like, wide receiver.
Jeremy
Okay. Not a good record this year, though so far.
Nafis
It has not.
Jeremy
Name the law students who are the problem on your team. Oh no, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
Nafis
I don't think there's anyone who's a problem.
Jeremy
Okay, you also, this is, this is it. You, you play the piano. Do you also play the violin or you just, like, listen.
Nafis
No, no, I just love the violin. I wish I could play the violin. Actually, my sister learned the violin when we were growing up. But then she quit. She, like, just cold quit, was like, I don't like this anymore. And we were still very young. I told my mother, I want to play the violin. And she said, absolutely not.
I'm not spending all that time for you to learn just for you to quit.
Jeremy
But you still play the piano.
Nafis
But I do play the piano and I play guitar too.
Jeremy
Okay, I want to tell you something that you… Did your mother encourage you to play the piano? Like, was that something she supported or?
Nafis
It was really my dad who encouraged me. He plays a lot of music, so…
Jeremy
Perfect. So, when I was about 11 years old, I'd taken piano lessons for three years and I told my dad, I don't want to do this anymore. And I... And he said, “You're going to keep doing it”. And I told him, “I don't want to do this anymore”. He says, “you're going to keep doing it”.
And then I said, “I don't want to do this anymore”. And he goes, “Okay, I'm going to let you quit. But I promise you, you will regret it”. And it was like, I think back on that moment it’s like and then the thunderclap hit, because of course I do regret it. I really wish I could play the piano.
Nafis
Yeah.
Jeremy
So, what do you what sort of songs do you play? What's what? You sit down at the piano. What are you playing?
Nafis
I think I started with playing, like, a lot of classical music and then, like, started playing, like, more pop songs and things of that sort. And these days I make music, but recreationally. So, like, I do kind of compose and things like that, but not to like be famous with or anything like that or like even put it out on like social media or anything like that.
Jeremy
What genre of music do you create? Would it be pop or…
Nafis
I guess would be kind of like pop, maybe some house or like R&B in there too. I just think it's nice.
Jeremy
And so, you're singing on this stuff?
Nafis
No, no, I don't really sing. I, I mostly just write the music and stuff like that. I've never been a big singer, honestly, and it's, just it's a nice break, like, mentally for me to do something that's still kind of productive in a way, kind of creative.
But I'm not staring at a page reading and, and working through laws and stuff like that.
Jeremy
Yeah, that's a great that's a great way to take a break. I'm not one that I can do because of violating my dad's demands, but… Okay. There's also in, I think when you when you were in high school, you took a constitutional law class.
Nafis
I did. Yeah.
Jeremy
Okay. And, and apparently that played a big role in your decisions to come to law school and, and just kind of the way you think about the law. So, talk about that.
Nafis
So, I did take, in my senior year, constitutional law. And obviously not like a law school level constitutional law. It was, it was more geared towards high school students. But my professor who had graduated from... Well, actually, I forget it was also she graduated from. But her introducing me to the law in that way and just being able to, like, read legal cases and specifically like constitutional law, which is foundational for every other law and precedent thats set in this country.
It just it, it, it just influenced that same like looking at structures, looking at how things are created, how things are formed, and how our communities are protected. That's basically what the Constitution is. It's…
Jeremy
How old were you when you took this class? What, like what grade in high school were you?
Nafis
It was a senior, so I was like 17.
Jeremy
Okay. It really must have inspired you because when you were 18, you ran for city council.
Nafis
I did.
Jeremy
Now, where did you do this? Where in the country?
Nafis
In Carson. Carson, which is like a suburb of Los Angeles.
Jeremy
Okay. Why did you do that?
Nafis
I guess it was just conglomerate, conglomeration of everything. So, I had taken this constitutional law class. I just graduated high school. I was interning at the time for a senator in California. And I realized that at 18, you can run for public office in, in my hometown and in most public offices in California, despite however much experience you've had.
Jeremy
Yeah. I'm not saying it's unlawful. Yeah. Not saying you broke the law. I'm just wondering, like, why are you like, I'm 18, I'm running for city council.
Nafis
It was just like it was a joke amongst my friends at the time. And we were like, oh, like, you can actually do this at, at, at 18. And me just having like that public safety background and wanting to encourage more public safety in our communities, especially like in California where like wildfires are always a big thing or quick preparation is always a big thing.
And I just, I wanted to be a part of that conversation from a younger perspective and influence that conversation.
Jeremy
Talk to me about like, how did you conduct campaign events? Were you still in high school at the time?
Nafis
No, no, no, I graduated okay.
Jeremy
Okay, graduated.
Nafis
I was actually in my freshman year of college.
Jeremy
Okay. So, tell me how, like, what sorts of campaign events do you do?
Are you going to nursing homes and stuff and talking to people?
Nafis
Yeah. Nursing homes. There were a lot of community events that were put on. I did a lot of just going door to door and talking to people. Carson is not like a huge city. It's a little bigger than Waco. Probably actually significantly bigger than Waco.
But it's not, it's not massive. And growing up there, like, I knew all the different streets and stuff like that, a lot. What was funny was a lot of people knew me just because it is...
Jeremy
It's just kind of it's your community.
Nafis
Yeah. And so, if they didn't know me, they knew my parents, and they, they when I was, like, going around, I'd go door to door and they're like, where do you live?
And I would like, tell them where I live. And they're like, oh, you're, you're that kid. Like, you're the one who used to run around.
Jeremy
You're the Mohammed boy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, so, so, how did people react? Like you're, you're at an event. You're, you know, you're doing your stump speech basically, and you're 18 years old.
What did people say to you about why are you doing this when you're 18? Or why should we vote for you when you're only 18?
Nafis
I think that was the biggest question that I got, but I, I put it out there. Like my, my campaign slogan was “18 and running”. And I wanted people to know that. I wanted people to know that like, even though I'm 18, I have ideas.
I care a lot about this. I care a lot about our community. I grew up here. I want these communities to be safe. I want us to focus on things that make our community safer. And I have, I have big ideas. I'm, I'm passionate about this. And I feel like people reacted really well.
Jeremy
Did you have to debate your opponent?
Nafis
I did, I did, but that was fun for me. I, I really enjoyed that actually. Probably more than they, they…
Jeremy
You, you, you are in the right place. You are in the right place in your life right now. That's I think that's fabulous. Okay. You, as you've said, you were originally from Southern California. You finished? I think you finish your undergraduate degree in Dallas.
Nafix
Yeah, I did.
Jeremy
Okay, so you've got a Texas connection that predates law school here at Baylor. But I'm wondering, like, your observations about living in Southern California versus living in North and Central Texas, which is where you've, you've been.
Nafis
In what regards?
Jeremy
Any regard.
Nafis
Like just what the difference is.
Jeremy
Yeah. What do you like about the differences? What do you dislike about?
Nafis
Well, you guys don't have a beach here.
Jeremy
It's true.
Nafis
Unfortunately,
Jeremy
Yeah. We have Waco surf. They have a, they have a beach. We have a lake.
Nafis
I, I do like the surf.
Jeremy
I'm sure it's the same as the Pacific Ocean.
Nafis
Yeah. It, it ,it's a little bit different.
Jeremy
It's a little bit.
Nafis
I think the Pacific Ocean is just colder, that's all.
Jeremy
Okay.
Nafis
It's a lot more humid here too, which is, you know, it just kind of goes back to the weather thing. But aside from that, I actually really like Waco, which I was like, I, I was a little apprehensive about before because prior to law school, I'd never been to Waco.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Nafis
Maybe once. And that was really about it.
I had, I mean, I had a lot of family in Dallas and Fort Worth, so I'd been up there plenty of times before even coming to undergrad here. And Waco was just, I was like, yeah, I got into Baylor. I said, Baylor's in the middle of nowhere. Am I gonna like it? I don't, I don't know what Waco is, but after being here, especially spending all the, the entire summer here and now, a couple weeks of this quarter, it's really nice.
I actually really like Waco. It's small. It's very much a college town. The community is really, really sweet, and I guess I haven't experienced much of it because I spent a lot of my time in the library.
Jeremy
Yeah, but as you should.
Nafis
But from what I've seen, Waco is a really nice place. We have a lot of, like, great food options. Everything is five minutes away in Waco.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Nafis
Which may or may not be true, but to me, where you're going. But it feels like everything is five minutes away, which I love, because I'm just like,
Jeremy
Yeah.
Nafis
Library, coffee shop, right back. Library. Go get lunch, right back.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Nafis
That's nice.
Jeremy
So, so my, I, I've, I've lived in Waco for a long time now, but my experience at the beginning of my time here was very similar to yours.
Coming, coming to Waco for me was like a neutral.
Nafis
Yeah.
Jeremy
Wasn't a positive. Wasn't a negative. That's how I was in my head. But it's been a real positive. And one of the things that's really positive about living here, especially as a student, but also just working here like I do now, you don't spend a lot of time doing things you don't want to do or need to be doing because of exactly the reason you said. There's not a lot of difficulty getting from one place to the to the other.
You know, it's just and we we're a good, you know, big town, small city, college town like you said. Okay. You want, my understanding here is, you want to pursue securities enforcement and regulation law, and you have an interest in financial infrastructure and how resource allocation either protects or harms communities, which seems consistent with your, your background that we've, we've talked about. What shape do you think that will take?
Like what do you think the first perfect first job for you will be given that interest?
Nafis
Honestly, I'm not entirely sure. I'm kind of open to it. I'm applying to obviously a lot of law firms and stuff like that. Hopefully with one that like has a practice area in that, in that kind of sector.
Jeremy
Is this a litigation practice you envision or more of a transactional?
Nafis
I would like to do litigation for it. I think that litigating, but for that, would be awesome. But I know that a lot of that work is also very transactional too. So, I'm really hoping that, like through internships in law school, I can kind of get a sense of both of those different things and hopefully be able to choose by the end which one I prefer.
Jeremy
You've only been here since May. Have been a law student since May. You started in the summer. We have three entering classes. In that relatively short period of time, what have you learned about yourself in law school?
Nafis
That's a really good question. I have learned…
Jeremy
That’s the only kind we ask on this podcast.
Nafis
I have learned that I can handle a lot of pressure. I have learned who I am under pressure, and you think I would have already kind of known that like being a firefighter, being in stressful situations, but I feel like that was different and that it wasn't stressful all the time.
Whereas law school and, and being a firefighter is extremely stressful. It's extremely rigorous. There's always different calls you're getting and it's always something different. But what's nice is you kind of get to use your hands and you get into kind of a rhythm with it. And what's more is that you're not busy all the time. You can be, and there's definitely days where you're just going, going, going.
But you, you get a break. And I feel like with law school it's a lot all at once, almost all the time. And rather than being able to get into like a comfortable rhythm, like just using my hands and like being physical work, this is all mental. And I have learned a lot more about who I am under mental pressure and how I can handle, still, you know, showing up for me, you know, still, you know, taking some time to go for a run, go to the gym.
You know, make my music or whatever, and, and also care about my academics and be competitive and lock in. Put that time in in the library.
Jeremy
Yeah. You're less likely to be physically injured in law school than as a firefighter.
Nafis
Very true.
Jeremy
That's a positive.
Nafis
That's a big positive.
Jeremy
All right. We have come to the lightning round. Nafis, the answers, the questions are silly. Your answers have to be short.
Nafis
Okay.
Jeremy
What's a movie you could watch over and over again?
Nafis
The Pursuit of Happiness.
Jeremy
Would you rather explore space or the deep ocean?
Nafis
The deep ocean.
Jeremy
What's one chore you would happily never do again?
Nafis
Washing dishes. I love to cook. Don't like washing dishes.
Jeremy
What's your current coffee order?
Nafis
Oh. Honestly, I don't know.
Jeremy
You don't drink coffee?
Nafis
I do drink a lot of coffee. I just take it black, though.
Jeremy
Like a, like, drip coffee. Folgers or whatever.
Nafis
Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy
You're not a fussy coffee drinker.
Nafis
Not not…
Jeremy
I, I put a little bit of milk in my coffee, and my father called me a nuisance coffee drinker because I didn't take it black.
So, you are a non-nuisance coffee drinker. What's something your younger self would think is really cool about your life right now?
Nafis
That I got into law school.
Jeremy
There you go. If you could live in another city for exactly one year, where would you go?
Nafis
Any city in the world or any city in the United States?
Jeremy
Anywhere in the world.
Nafis
Maybe Spain.
Jeremy
That's not a city.
Nafis
Oh, well, okay. You're right, you're right. Barcelona.
Jeremy
Okay. What's the superior French fry shape?
Nafis
Curly.
Jeremy
Favorite way to celebrate good news?
Nafis
With my grandma.
Jeremy
Awww. Oh, what's your comfort show? Television show that's like comfort food for you.
Nafis
The Office.
Jeremy
Do you unpack immediately after a trip or let live out of your suitcase for a few days?
Nafis
I live out of my suitcase for a few days. It's a bad habit.
Jeremy
Me too. Silence or background noise when you study?
Nafis
Background noise, usually listening to music.
Jeremy
Hardly surprising, given what we know about you. If you could be on any game show, which would you choose?
Nafis
The Price is Right. I feel like I could guess the prices.
Jeremy
How many alarms do you set in the morning?
Nafis
Like five.
Jeremy
Why do you set five?
Nafis
I have to. I have to pre-wake-up like 30 minutes before I actually wake up. And then I have my wake-up alarm. So, my pre wake-up is like 5:30.
And then there's like another one at like 5:45 and then 5:50 and then 5:55 to let me know, like, hey, we're waking up.
Jeremy
It's time.
Nafis
Then 6 a.m.
Jeremy
Okay. Are all of these alarms on the same device or do you have multiple devices?
Nafis
No, it's just on my phone.
Jeremy
One device. Okay, you got to make sure that sucker is charged. Oh, yeah. Which app gets the most screen time on your phone?
Nafis
Probably Instagram.
Jeremy
What song are you playing on repeat right now.
Nafis
BbY Wow by Karol G.
Jeremy
You, you live in the library, but maybe you've ventured out a little bit. What's your favorite restaurant in Waco?
Nafis
Oh, my favorite restaurant in Waco? Oh. That's hard. I, I wouldn't know any of the names off the top of my head.
Jeremy
You can just describe it. I bet I've eaten there before.
Nafis
I really like Thrst Coffee Shop. That's been my favorite coffee shop on the weekends.
Jeremy
We have a lot of coffee shops here for a town this size.
Nafis
Yeah, there's, there's a lot. They’re, they're everywhere.
Jeremy
Good. Okay, I understand you may have a question for me.
Nafis
So, I know I, I think it was the last Dean’s devotional where you talked about how you play the New York Times games every morning.
Jeremy
Yeah.
Nafis
I wanted to know, which one is your favorite?
Jeremy
Okay.
Nafis
And how does having that consistency in your schedule or that routine help you, help keep you from getting burnt out?
Jeremy
Okay. I, just a bit of correction. I don't play a lot of New York Times games because to, to get access to most of them, you have to be a subscriber.
Nafis
This is true.
Jeremy
And I subscribe to a different newspaper.
Nafis
Okay.
Jeremy
So, but here's, but I do play a couple.
Nafis
Okay.
Jeremy
Okay. So, every morning I get up at about 5:00. I let my dogs out, I sit down, I turn on the news, and I drink my coffee with, with milk. Nuisance coffee drinker. And about halfway through that cup of coffee, I do my games.
Okay, so here's I do them the same ones in a certain order.
Nafis
Okay.
Jeremy
First one Wordle.
Nafis
Okay.
Jeremy
That's New York Times. Second one, Connections.
Nafis
Okay.
Jeremy
That's also New York Times. Third one is the Washington Post mini crossword. And then the fourth one I do the Boston Globe mini crossword. Okay. Then I go to do a game called Keyword on the Washington Post website, and I do…
Oh, I'm going to forget the name of this one. It's also on Washington Post where they give you a quote that made the news. Someone said something, and you have to identify either who the speaker was or what they were speaking about. And so, you it helps if you've, frankly, if you've read The Washington Post because it's, you know, it's there.
Now, as for the first four, the two mini crosswords, the Wordle and the Connections, I set an alarm on my phone for ten minutes, and I try to get it done in ten minutes. And I'm successful maybe one out of five times. I find the Washington Post mini to sometimes be really, really frustrating.
Nafis
That's fair.
Jeremy
…to me. Do you, do you play these sorts of games?
Nafis
I do, I do, I usually play them at nighttime actually, before I go to sleep.
Jeremy
Okay. I don't think it has anything at all to do with my, like well-being or not getting burnt out. But I do like routine. And I think routine helps with stress, so it's not... I mean, the way I think about it, it's not so important that I do this in the morning, but that I do something throughout the day that's kind of a routine.
I think that helps me as far as not getting burnt out. I would say a couple things. One, the job I have is no two days are the same, and that's helpful with not getting burnt out because you're, you're doing something different pretty, pretty routinely. I've got a lot of variation in my days, and I work with really great people.
I mean, you know, I like the people I work with. I, I think we're all focused on the mission of the law school and focused on students, you know, making sure we're doing what we need to set them up for success.
Nafis
The staff here is phenomenal.
Jeremy
Yeah. And, you know, set them up for success both upon graduation and, and beyond. So, what are you doing at night? What are the puzzles you're doing at night?
Nafis
I usually do the Wordle, Connections. And then there's one other.
Jeremy
Do you want me to tell you the answer to today's Wordle?
Nafis
No.
Jeremy
I thought it was kind of, I thought it was kind of tricky.
Nafis
Was it?
Jeremy
Yeah, I thought it was kind of tricky. It's not a. Well, I'll just leave it at that.
Nafis
You can't spoil it. You can't.
Jeremy
I'm not.
Nafis
I'm going to do it later.
Jeremy
I wouldn't do that to you. I wouldn't do that to you. So, you do, you're doing the Wordle.
Nafis
Do the Wordle, Connections. And then there's one other one on New York Times I do. I actually didn't know the Washington Post had games also.
Jeremy
Yeah, they do.
Nafis
I'm gonna have to check those out.
Jeremy
I have actually thought about subscribing to the New York Times just to get greater access to their games, because I think they're, I think they're really good.
Nafis
They are really good.
Jeremy
I used to do the New York Times mini crossword, which I prefer. It's my favorite mini, but they shut you out if you're not a subscriber.
Nafis
That's fair.
Jeremy
So…
Nafis
That's fair. I usually do it Connections first though. That's my favorite one.
Jeremy
It's my favorite one too I, I, I think now that can be frustrating too sometimes.
Nafis
It can. It, it, it can. I get really close sometimes I have like one guess left and I'm like, uh oh
Jeremy
Yeah. How often, you know the, the purple category is the hardest one on the… How often is the purple one, just the last four, so you automatically know.
Nafis
Probably pretty often.
Jeremy
For me it's most of the time.
Nafis
Yeah, I think, I think it's…
Jeremy
It's that is the, they're accurate that that's the hardest category.
Nafis
Definitely in, in the...
Jeremy
And here's the other interesting thing. When it's not my hardest category, it's the first one I get, for whatever reason, that category just connects with some experience I've had or something that happened to know that.
And so, it's, it's almost always fourth. But if it's not fourth, it's usually first.
Nafis
So yeah, I think I've had it first maybe a couple of times. Very, very few times. But usually it's last.
Jeremy
We have geeked out on these puzzles. But I just want to tell you, I really appreciate it having you on the podcast, and we're glad you're here at Baylor Law School.
Nafis
Thank you so much, Dean Counseller.
